Terrace Oaks Trail Work-- Monday, Aug 30.

[nigel]

We will be doing some trail work at Terrace on Monday the 30th at 6pm

There are 3 re-routes flagged that will need to be cleared before the machines get in there and clean it up so we can finish them. So this week will be doing the initial clearing with loppers, chainsaws, saws.

The re-routes are:
--after the 2nd swithcback from the REI trail day work, the trail will go left to avoid the huge roots and areas that pool water
--before the gully crossing the trail will shoot left and avoid the last couple switchbacks to the downhill that crosses it, the tend to pool up with water pretty bad. (ones still a lil damp today even!)
--a multiple switchback as a new way up the big hill! It will cross it once, im guessing we will reclaim that hill as well, it needs it.

So for those that are available please come and meetup at the trailhead at 6pm. Also if you happen to have extra loppers they would be greatly appreciated :)

We should be able to get these sections complete this fall if we work at it and get a decent size crew out over the next month. They are not that long at all, but do require some people!

Any questions, please feel free to post em up, email me, or PM me.

Douglas

[homebrewbiker]

We will be doing some trail work at Terrace on Monday the 30th at 6pm

There are 3 re-routes flagged that will need to be cleared before the machines get in there and clean it up so we can finish them. So this week will be doing the initial clearing with loppers, chainsaws, saws.

The re-routes are:
--after the 2nd swithcback from the REI trail day work, the trail will go left to avoid the huge roots and areas that pool water
--before the gully crossing the trail will shoot left and avoid the last couple switchbacks to the downhill that crosses it, the tend to pool up with water pretty bad. (ones still a lil damp today even!)
--a multiple switchback as a new way up the big hill! It will cross it once, im guessing we will reclaim that hill as well, it needs it.

So for those that are available please come and meetup at the trailhead at 6pm. Also if you happen to have extra loppers they would be greatly appreciated :)

We should be able to get these sections complete this fall if we work at it and get a decent size crew out over the next month. They are not that long at all, but do require some people!

Any questions, please feel free to post em up, email me, or PM me.

Douglas
I don't ride this trail much with all of the improvements at Lebanon this year. But I will try to make it to lend a hand. Still a soft spot in my heart for Terrace. I have only been dedicated to MTB riding about 3 years maybe, and last year made a concerted effort to improve and Terrace was a good place to work on climbing and endurance (it was tougher when there was that first climb into the woods).

[nigel]

I don't ride this trail much with all of the improvements at Lebanon this year. But I will try to make it to lend a hand. Still a soft spot in my heart for Terrace. I have only been dedicated to MTB riding about 3 years maybe, and last year made a concerted effort to improve and Terrace was a good place to work on climbing and endurance (it was tougher when there was that first climb into the woods).

Well, we're hoping to bring Terrace back up to a trail that people want to ride again! Ive been there a few times this year and its been pretty much dead, but that may also be the times ive been there. We'll do these re-routes and check what can be done over time to make it better. For now though we need to be focused on upkeep and stablity of the trail, then we can get fun! Hope to see ya there :)

Douglas

[FSSS]

For now though we need to be focused on upkeep and stablity of the trail, then we can get fun! Hope to see ya there :)

DouglasThink you'll "get fun" this year?

The thing I like about Terrace Oaks (and probably its biggest criticism) is that it is short. You can easily and quickly do a lap.

It would be great to add a bunch of stunts/obstacles.

Wanna practice log rides? ...well go to TO, they've got a bunch and you can bust out a lap or 2 in the time it'd take you to get to the XX loop at Leb.

Wanna practice jumping? ...well go to TO they've got a bunch. And so on...

It would be fun to see more jumps and some real skinnies too. All of which having alternate routes of course. There is nothing wrong with tougher skills on easy/intermediate trails if you have alternate routes!

Personally, I think the stunts are a very big part of why people ride Leb and not TO. Leb's length and great trail design/construction are also factors, but the man-made stuff really attracts attention (good from riders, often bad from land managers).

How does the Terrace Oaks park mgmt feel about stunts??

[homebrewbiker]

Think you'll "get fun" this year?

The thing I like about Terrace Oaks (and probably its biggest criticism) is that it is short. You can easily and quickly do a lap.

It would be great to add a bunch of stunts/obstacles.

Wanna practice log rides? ...well go to TO, they've got a bunch and you can bust out a lap or 2 in the time it'd take you to get to the XX loop at Leb.

Wanna practice jumping? ...well go to TO they've got a bunch. And so on...

It would be fun to see more jumps and some real skinnies too. All of which having alternate routes of course. There is nothing wrong with tougher skills on easy/intermediate trails if you have alternate routes!

Personally, I think the stunts are a very big part of why people ride Leb and not TO. Leb's length and great trail design/construction are also factors, but the man-made stuff really attracts attention (good from riders, often bad from land managers).

How does the Terrace Oaks park mgmt feel about stunts??
Terrace Oaks has a very vocal group of hikers who insist that we stay on the trail. I don't think they'd be thrilled with TO as a stunt park. Additionally, turtles sometimes lay their eggs on and nearby the trail, and that should be taken into account. Honestly, I don't think Terrace Oaks is the place for wild stunts.

[gopherhockey]

The city has not even blessed log piles, so I seriously doubt we'll see any man made obstacles other than some rock garden type natural things at Terrace.

I think the initial efforts will all be centered on shaping up the existing trails including re-routes where appropriate. That means probably tye usual less steep climbs and more gradual and sustained types of riding.

[FSSS]

Can't hurt to dream, right? :cryin:

Or at least get people talking about it!

[syntaxjunkie]

I may be expressing a minority opinion here, but if nothing else I'd be curious to hear what others think:

Personally, I'd be very supportive of re-working Terrace Oaks to address sustainability issues without adding a lot of stunts. I love what the stunts and obstacles at Leb do for the ride. But I don't think that every trail in the Metro should be wall to wall log obstacles, teeters and so forth.

I think it's important that riders have access to that kind of riding experience. But I also think there's a lot to be said for pure, wooded singletrack with twists, turns, climbs and challenges that more geographic than man-made.

If we want to enhance the profile of mountain biking in the region and continue bringing new riders of all ages into the sport, variety is going to be key to our success. Personally, I honed a lot of my riding chops at Terrace Oaks early on. The relative brevity of the trail was great, because I could put in a few laps and try a number of different approaches to things. That, and it's just a beautiful place to ride--you hardly know you're less than 2 miles from an interstate.

Again, whether people agree or disagree, I'd love to hear more opinions on this...

[nigel]

Terrace will not turn into a Lebanon, thats what Leb is for :crazy: . We need to work on existing stuff there first, Terrace does have a great singletrack flow that is unique to it, so i think we need to work with that aspect of it. The hikers will have their way, there is no need to cut into those areas at all, we have to repsectful of the city as to regulations ect... There a few things id like to see at Terrace and time, trail upkeep, ownership, interest and building a healthy relationship with the city will be the final say.

Douglas

[syntaxjunkie]

In fairness, I should also point out that I got 30-some stitches and the mother of all hideous infections after impaling my calf on a less-than-well-assembled (and assumingly non-sanctioned) log obstacle that showed up at Terrace a couple years back. So I'm biased against anything that might incorporate dead trees with pointy ends. :sick:

[FSSS]

I completely agree, there are no more important issues than the sustainability of the trail, reducing conflicts with other park users, and environmental concerns. I didn't mean to de-value the trail itself.

I also don't think every trail in the Metro should be wall-to-wall log obstacles, teeters, and so forth. But, it'd be nice if at least ONE of them was... Leb certainly has stunts, but it's way too spread out to be considered wall-to-wall stunts.




But I also think there's a lot to be said for pure, wooded singletrack with twists, turns, climbs and challenges that more geographic than man-made. I completely and totally agree.




If we want to enhance the profile of mountain biking in the region and continue bringing new riders of all ages into the sport, variety is going to be key to our success. Again, I completely agree. I also think having a safe, well-built stunt/obstacle area (or short trail) would only increase variety in the cities' trails. I also think it would bring new riders, especially younger riders - many of which aren't necessarily into the cardiovascular challenges of the sport.

But... it sounds like TO is not the place if mgmt is afraid of log piles.

[gopherhockey]

Having Doug step in and help at Terrace is going to bring good things no matter what. He is totally right, just having someone really truely take ownership will make the difference. I might not ride Terrace much today, but if I knew someone was working over there to keep it up more and do their best to lobby for improvements I'd probably ride there more and have no doubt will enjoy it more and more each time.

Terrace will find its niche I have no doubt. This is a great step! Thanks Doug for taking the time to take Terrace under your wing.

And of course thanks to everyone that do the same by coming out to trail work at your local or favorite trail. I know Leb wouldn't be used as comparison material if it weren't for everyone's volunteer hours. Its really great timing for Terrace too since we're really going to be slowing down at Leb once we get the last trail in place and repair a few damage spots...

Maybe in three years we'll all be comparing other trails to Terrace! :D

[syntaxjunkie]

I also think having a safe, well-built stunt/obstacle area (or short trail) would only increase variety in the cities' trails. I also think it would bring new riders, especially younger riders - many of which aren't necessarily into the cardiovascular challenges of the sport.

Good points, all. Thanks for your thoughts. And even if Terrace isn't the place for what you're thinking, making it a popular riding destination will add momentum to opening/adding to other trails in the area. And bringing younger riders (God, I feel like my dad saying that) into the sport--hopefully as active MORC members--will help make more stunt-oriented trails or sections a reality.

[drakh]

I may be expressing a minority opinion here, but if nothing else I'd be curious to hear what others think:

Personally, I'd be very supportive of re-working Terrace Oaks to address sustainability issues without adding a lot of stunts. I love what the stunts and obstacles at Leb do for the ride. But I don't think that every trail in the Metro should be wall to wall log obstacles, teeters and so forth.
From what i've gathered talking to others (which agrees with my personal opinion) Lebanon is so popular because it's about the only place in the metro area that has those kinds of man-made challenges.
There are plenty of places that have scenic rides. There are plenty of places that have bigger hills. But Lebanon always seems to be packed.
If we could get another park or two setup like Lebanon, it might reduce some of the pressure on Lebanon.

Michael

[FSSS]

I think... obstacles are a great way to "advertise" to get new MORC members. When you put something like a teeter on a trail, it is so obviously made by someone (for mtb traffic) that people wonder who is responsible. I'm not a fan of blatant advertising, but a big ol' www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmtb.org) on the teeter decking wouldn't hurt.

Plus obstacles/stunts are fun!! :banana:

[berrywise]

I think... obstacles are a great way to "advertise" to get new MORC members. When you put something like a teeter on a trail, it is so obviously made by someone (for mtb traffic) that people wonder who is responsible. I'm not a fan of blatant advertising, but a big ol' www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmtb.org/) on the teeter decking wouldn't hurt.

Plus obstacles/stunts are fun!! :banana:
Someone with some woodburning skills could etch something like that into one of the pieces of planking pretty easy I bet. That wouldn't be an eye sore in my eyes.

scott

[syntaxjunkie]

From what i've gathered talking to others (which agrees with my personal opinion) Lebanon is so popular because it's about the only place in the metro area that has those kinds of man-made challenges.
There are plenty of places that have scenic rides. There are plenty of places that have bigger hills. But Lebanon always seems to be packed.
If we could get another park or two setup like Lebanon, it might reduce some of the pressure on Lebanon.

I'd contend that Leb has gotten so popular because it's big enough to accomodate tight, flowing singletrack AND challenging obstacles. Both of which have made it a better, more sustainable and more challenging trail. The real estate and geography necessary to pull this off just aren't found at every trail in the area.

Another thought: I think part of Leb's popularity can be traced to its relative accessability via about three major highways. Now that it's the area's sweetest trail and it's easier to get to than most of the other metro trails, the crowds are sure to come.

[homebrewbiker]

I'd contend that Leb has gotten so popular because it's big enough to accomodate tight, flowing singletrack AND challenging obstacles. Both of which have made it a better, more sustainable and more challenging trail. The real estate and geography necessary to pull this off just aren't found at every trail in the area.

Another thought: I think part of Leb's popularity can be traced to its relative accessability via about three major highways. Now that it's the area's sweetest trail and it's easier to get to than most of the other metro trails, the crowds are sure to come.
I absolutely agree with this. Mountain Biking is not all about stunts, it is about navigating through terrain. The "stunts" at Lebanon are, for the most part, natural, with a few exceptions (teeter totter and camel back come to mind). To me they are helpful for training in areas where the terrain is more extreme.

And look at the new areas being built at Lebanon, the "Dream" is not full of obstacles, but it is a great addition. The new entrance does not have obstacles and stunts either but is another good addition.

If there is an interest in legitimizing mountain biking in the eyes of parks boards I don't think building extreme things where people can get hurt will do the cause much good.

[thebionicman]

The new entrance does not have obstacles and stunts either but is another good addition.

I wouldn't be to sure about that one. :D

[homebrewbiker]

I wouldn't be to sure about that one. :D
I guess I should have said the new entrance last time I was there :cool:

[FSSS]

If there is an interest in legitimizing mountain biking in the eyes of parks boards I don't think building extreme things where people can get hurt will do the cause much good.
All stunts don't have to be extreme... the teeter for example. A well designed obstacle/stunt trail or area can appeal to all abilities. You'd be surprised how much safety can be designed into an area too.


One reason I've been pushing this topic is that if we don't build safe, well-built, legal stunts, people will build illegal ones. This illegal building on public lands threatens ALL MTB trails, even the most novice off-road trails. I simply feel MORC should be proactive on this topic (like IMBA is trying to be), by helping resist and/or decrease illegal trails and stunts by building sanctioned ones.


There is more discussion on this thread:
http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?p=94250#post94250

[homebrewbiker]

All stunts don't have to be extreme... the teeter for example. A well designed obstacle/stunt trail or area can appeal to all abilities. You'd be surprised how much safety can be designed into an area too.


One reason I've been pushing this topic is that if we don't build safe, well-built, legal stunts, people will build illegal ones. This illegal building on public lands threatens ALL MTB trails, even the most novice off-road trails. I simply feel MORC should be proactive on this topic (like IMBA is trying to be), by helping resist and/or decrease illegal trails and stunts by building sanctioned ones.


There is more discussion on this thread:
http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?p=94250#post94250
I do agree with this. The last thing we need is for someone to get hurt on an unsanctioned stunt in a County/3 Rivers Park.

On aonther topic, TO gets a lot of illegal use because of the late opening and early closing of the trail. When the trail is closed the signs disappear and it gets easy to get lost and end up on the wrong trail (at least that is what I heard).;)

[FSSS]

I just want to clarify...

I love singletrack. All kinds of singletrack (well... tight and twisty can get old to me, but I know a lot of riders love it). Riding sweet singletrack is the backbone of mountain biking, that will never change. But this is a diverse sport that needs many different types of terrain to satisfy its participants.

Mountain biking is definitely not all about stunts and obstacles. But... stunts and obstacles are a part of the sport (and a growing part, I think).

My wish is for a legal area or trail with a main focus on this type of riding. It sounds like Terrace Oaks won't be that place, and Leb's trails are currently such an awesome mix of ALL types that I wouldn't want it to change.

Maybe in Leb's future expansion??? Maybe in another park???? Maybe on private land???? Who knows.

I think it would be cool if it happened, and I think MORC could help it happen.

[nigel]

I just want to clarify...

I love singletrack. All kinds of singletrack (well... tight and twisty can get old to me, but I know a lot of riders love it). Riding sweet singletrack is the backbone of mountain biking, that will never change. But this is a diverse sport that needs many different types of terrain to satisfy its participants.

Mountain biking is definitely not all about stunts and obstacles. But... stunts and obstacles are a part of the sport (and a growing part, I think).

My wish is for a legal area or trail with a main focus on this type of riding. It sounds like Terrace Oaks won't be that place, and Leb's trails are currently such an awesome mix of ALL types that I wouldn't want it to change.

Maybe in Leb's future expansion??? Maybe in another park???? Maybe on private land???? Who knows.

I think it would be cool if it happened, and I think MORC could help it happen.
I think private land is the best bet for stunt parks....but then they run into liability and insurance issues, fees and such that they HAVE to charge to cover their costs. Would be sweet tho to build some nice north shore stuff somewhere here!

D

[gopherhockey]

I think private land is the best bet for stunt parks....but then they run into liability and insurance issues, fees and such that they HAVE to charge to cover their costs. Would be sweet tho to build some nice north shore stuff somewhere here!

D
I totally agree... I think private land is the only way we'll see anything near north shore levels.

I'd entertain those that want this type of thing so bad to do some homework and come up with an area. We have a lot of people working on getting more regular singletrack parks and putting time into that, so someone else is going to have to step up and find these types of areas. Its just not going to happen at Leb, Terrace or any other public land managed trails unless we get lucky and pull something off like they did down in Joliet, IL... perhaps someone out there that owns land would like to attract some riders to a freeride area and make a buck off it at the same time. Thats probably what it would take.

If I were into it I'd probably contact those guys and find out how they pulled it off...

[grizzly adam]

Someone with some woodburning skills could etch something like that into one of the pieces of planking pretty easy I bet. That wouldn't be an eye sore in my eyes.

scottI agree. Or even something carved with a dremel tool to create trailhead signs or caution signs. My dad runs the cross-country ski trails at Spirit Mountain and there's signage out on the trails with the above-mentioned skills. Looks good and is effective.

I'm going to try to show up Monday night to help with the trail work - woohoo! I don't have any tools, but I do have gloves!

[Tim Wegner]

I have been meeting with some private land owners that are interested in building a mountain bike park. Some of the things we talked about were; dual slalom course, cross country, freeride area and beginner trails. We also discussed amenities like camping, food etc. Again this is preliminary and could be in the future 2-3 years. I anticipate doing some design work on one of these pieces of land this fall yet but the dual slalom and freeride will have to wait until mid season next year.

Sorry, once again I can't share the location of this land but as soon as I get the OK I will post it here on the forums.
TW

[Panman]

I have been meeting with some private land owners that are interested in building a mountain bike park....
I plan on building trails on some land as well. As soon as I get a good job and can afford a decent ammount of land I'll buy some (100's of acers) for two things, mountain biking and hunting. Not sure how the fall will work with trails and hunting together, trails closed?.. Don't think it'll be too close to the cities though. :( Sigh...someday. :D

[nigel]

Hope to see a good size group at Terrace today at 6! Just so you guys know, i have an emergency dental appointment at 430, but i made it at a place near Terrace, so i "may" be a few min late, however, John Dahl and Don Youngdahl should both be there to get everyone started. Ive been trying to get ahold of em, but they are not around. So John, and Don, if you see this post im running a few min late, if not can someone mention it to them so they dont worry :) Ill be there with teeth in hand!!

D

[nigel]

Well, we had a small group today but we got the first re-route cut through so Tim and Dale can get in there and do their thing! Actually we did get a lot of work done with the size group we had! Thanks a lot Bob and John for helping us out, could'nt a done it without ya, and hey Bob got to play with a chainsaw too!


Anyone up for next Monday?? I know its a holiday weekend and all, but if anyone can make it please let me know and we'll get something going around 5 or so. There are still 2 more re-routes to clear plus finishing work on the one we just did after they get in with the machines!

Douglas

[ppgc]

Anyone up for next Monday?? I know its a holiday weekend and all, but if anyone can make it please let me know and we'll get something going around 5 or so. There are still 2 more re-routes to clear plus finishing work on the one we just did after they get in with the machines!

Douglas
I don't have anything better to do next Monday, I am in. :)

[grizzly adam]

I think so....
wait, that's what I thought about last night too...

[nigel]

I think so....
wait, that's what I thought about last night too...
uh-huh what the heck happend!

If we can get 10 people total next week, we will be able to:
--do all the finishing work on the first re-route and open it!
--clear the second re-route for the machines
--start the 3rd re-route!

I think ima try and get it going around 4 or so, since people will have the day off and we can have some more light to work with.

D

[grizzly adam]

I had stuff to do around the house and we had to go to the grocery store.
Not a good excuse I know....

[homebrewbiker]

uh-huh what the heck happend!

If we can get 10 people total next week, we will be able to:
--do all the finishing work on the first re-route and open it!
--clear the second re-route for the machines
--start the 3rd re-route!

I think ima try and get it going around 4 or so, since people will have the day off and we can have some more light to work with.

D
OK I do not foresee conflicts since I should be in town. I will try to make it.

[Tim Wegner]

Dale and I had the dingo and the witch out tonight and finished the first section that got brushed on Monday. As soon as the other areas get brushed out we will work on those as well. Should be another awesome trail. Powder dry out there though, not sure if we can open the reroutes here until we get some rain. Did a little deberming work on the other reroutes. Trail seems to be in great shape.

TW

[Don Youngdahl]

Although I'm not the trail steward for Terrace Oaks, and live in the North Metro, I've been helping support the effort to improve Terrace Oaks, so I'd like to chime in with a few thoughts on the re-routes now in progress there.

It is understandably a tough sell to get trail workers for a short trail like Terrace Oaks after the intensive effort to build a great place like Lebanon, but I'd like to suggest another way to look at the situation. Have you ever been concerned about the intensive use, wear and tear, and overcrowding at Lebanon? I can assure you that MORC leadership and the Lebanon Hills leaders have had that concern. What is the best way to take some of the riding pressure off of Leb? That's a no-brainer - build or improve other riding venues for those who sometimes want a place a bit closer, just a short ride, a change of scenery, etc.

If you are concerned about over-use of Lebanon Hills, then it's in your best interests to help with Terrace Oaks, Battle Creek, Minnesota River Trail, etc, even if you seldom or never ride there. John Dahl, Dale Gundberg, and Tim Wegner have done yeoman work in selling the Terrace Oaks citizens board and park management on this project, now it's up to the rest of us to hold up our end.

Doug Holst, a true friend of mountain biking in several ways, has stepped up to the plate to schedule and lead trail work projects - let's not let him down.

Don Youngdahl

[homebrewbiker]

Not to sound like a martyr but I am doing trail work on Monday instead of going on a group ride at Theo Wirth. I would have been there on Monday but I had a prior commitment that slipped my mind. I will do what I can to support this effort but it is difficult considering that I work in Plymouth and generally ride on Mondays. But I will do what I can to support this effort.:D

[bigwheel]

The new section looks like it will be fun, with some fairly tight singletrack. Terrace Oaks has some really nice land. If the ongoing lobbying efforts are successful and we do a good job building/maintaining, this could become another great trail. It will also take some of the heat off of lebanon, and give me another fun trail near home and work.:D

Unfortunately, I'll be up north on Labor day. If we get back early, I'll stop over. I'm also planning to bring back my chainsaw and brush hook. If it is kept sharp, the brush hook is a quick way to get rid of trees/bushes up to an inch diameter. Whoosh -- there goes the tropical rainforest :scream: If Morc wants to pick one up, you can get it at Northern Hydraulics. They call it a Ditch Bank Blade. If this attachment thingie works, I'll try to attach a picture of one.

Suggestion: Start a new thread, that does not say August 30.