Subaru Outback?

[syntaxjunkie]

I am in the market for a new vehicle, and have had eyes for the Subaru Outback for quite some time. But before I make any rash decisions, I thought I'd check with others in my demographic to see if y'all have any thoughts/experiences, good, bad or indifferent.

Also, if you have other recommendations for MN-friendly, mountain bike-worthy vehicles, I'm all eyes and ears.

You can either leave me a note here or save John the server space by emailing me at lightningrod@mn.rr.com

Thanks,

Charles

[noise_is_life]

I had a '95 Outback with nearly 200K miles until last year thanks to some dumb kid in a Ford Explorer. In '95 it was really more of an optioned Legacy than a seperate model line, but regardless, we loved it. We had a couple of expensive problems the I think had more to do with how we (over)used the vehicle than anything else. We drove out west multiple times with up to 4 bikes on the top, hauled our Kayaks all over the place and even pulled a sailboat around with it.

We also had enough room for 2 dogs(barely) in the back seat with a full load a stuff in the back.

Late last year we upgraded(?) to a Toyota Sienna which has much more room, but for quite a bit more money, and certain things are more difficult with it since it is taller (e.g. putting kayaks on the roof). It doesn't have the outdoorzy rep of the outback, but it is just as capable, it has AWD so is just as good in the snow. It does use a bit more gas than the outback @18mpg vs. @20mpg.

[Brick]

I don't think the Outback was its own marque untill 2 years ago (or so), before then it was pretty much just a Legacy w. an off-road suspension package and schnazzy trim.

We've got a 98 Legacy wagon and just love it. The car is reliable and the AWD is bulletproof. My only gripe about the non-outback Legacy is the vehicle height, it sits really really LOW compared to the Outback.

I've used it to transport bikes inside, outsite, haul canoes, skis, lumber, etc. Very flexible vehicle.

[noise_is_life]

I don't think the Outback was its own marque untill 2 years ago (or so), before then it was pretty much just a Legacy w. an off-road suspension package and schnazzy trim.

We've got a 98 Legacy wagon and just love it. The car is reliable and the AWD is bulletproof. My only gripe about the non-outback Legacy is the vehicle height, it sits really really LOW compared to the Outback.

I've used it to transport bikes inside, outsite, haul canoes, skis, lumber, etc. Very flexible vehicle.
Problems we had:

Goofy ABS that was problematic from the very beginning, but always seemed to work when we needed it. Subaru was never able to fix it and eventually our warranty ran out so we just gave up.

Failed viscous coupler (part of AWD) which cost about a grand to get fixed, it seemed like this might have been caused or at least accelerated by towing the sailboat.

Really dumb problem that involved the timing belt slipping backward one notch caused by a chain of events that started with hitting a deer and that took both the Subaru Dealer and our mechanic a very long time (months) to figure out and ended up costing another grand. This is certainly not an Outback problem, but it is worth noting that the Subaru Dealer actually gave up on figuring it out and it was our own mechanic that eventually figured it out.

But like I said, we USE our vehicles, we don't pamper them.

[jitterjepp]

From what I understand this year they started putting the thing on a truck frame to avoid the emissions and fuel consumption standards for passenger cars. If this is true then I guess they are moving away from a green image with good gas mileage and going for the green. If true I wouldn't buy one.

[manual63]

I never owned a Subaru, but know many who did. They are very good cars and last a long time, even if you use them hard.

I friend of mine owns a Honda Element. If you do a lot of mountain biking and other sports, you might want to consider one of those.....or at least go look at one. They have a rubber interior for easy cleaning and when the seats are folded to the sides, not flat like most lame SUVs, you can stick about 4 mountain bikes upright in the back. It's the best vehicle I have seen for active people. It uses it's space quite well and has a wheel base of a Honda Civic. A lot of people think they are ugly, but I personally like the look.

Anyway.....have fun car huntin.

[EmL34]

Hey, the first thing I agree with Shad on...I like the Element for the same reasons Shad mentioned - and the price seems reasonable. Ironically I saw it for the first time at the St. Louis Auto show, so that must be Wirth something to ya. Some think they're a little funny looking, but then again, so is the trail fairy.I just bagged my problematic Explorer for a 2003 Passat W8. Thule nailed me for $500+ to make it bike worthy, but I am thrilled to be back in a car again.

[Magic]

Hey Shad, what if your other activities include hunting and fishing. That pile of junk Element couldn't get to any of the places that my Truck can go. I'm not one on square cars, I think Honda dropped the ball on this one. Where's the areodynamics in this thing. This car would not suit my needs as an outdoor person.

[seberly]

Ref the comment: "....hunting and fishing. That pile of junk Element couldn't get to any of the places that my Truck can go..."

First I am not a hunter nor a tree hugger per se: but these days why do hunters have to drive to where they hunt/fish? Used to be they walked - now they need a 4x4, a 4 wheeler etc. I have friends that have hunted for years that don't even go now due to these intrusive transportation methods......comments? I really want to know not bashing here.

[Shickdawg]

A friend of mine owns a Honda Element. If you do a lot of mountain biking and other sports, you might want to consider one of those.....or at least go look at one. They have a rubber interior for easy cleaning and when the seats are folded to the sides, not flat like most lame SUVs, you can stick about 4 mountain bikes upright in the back. It's the best vehicle I have seen for active people. It uses it's space quite well and has a wheel base of a Honda Civic. A lot of people think they are ugly, but I personally like the look.
I'm perfectly okay with people liking the Element's looks, though I despise it (not as much as that new Scion box-on-wheels). I do think you need to consider that the dumb rear doors don't open without the front doors open (at least on the passenger side).

The thing that amuses me the most is how badly Honda seems to have missed their target market with the Element. In theory, as a mid-twenties, active male, I should be drooling over the Element. In fact, I hate it, and so does every person my age I've talked to. I see 30-something and 40-somethings driving it frequently, and teenaged pre-drivers like it.

[Magic]

Steve, I use my Truck to get me on and off the lakes in the winter for icefishing. I also use my truck to get me up the mountains out west for elk hunting. Your right about the over use of trucks, cars or what-not to get us all back into the wilderness. But just like everything else if the technology is there and you can use it to your advantage, why not. Some of the lakes I fish are somewhat large, to walk to my fishing spots would not be possible. Same with most of the areas I hunt. Don't get me wrong, I still do my fair share of walking in the woods to get to my treestands or ground blinds.

[Trevize1138]

I don't think the Outback was its own marque untill 2 years ago (or so), before then it was pretty much just a Legacy w. an off-road suspension package and schnazzy trim.

We've got a 98 Legacy wagon and just love it. The car is reliable and the AWD is bulletproof. My only gripe about the non-outback Legacy is the vehicle height, it sits really really LOW compared to the Outback.

I've used it to transport bikes inside, outsite, haul canoes, skis, lumber, etc. Very flexible vehicle.
As far as I know the Outback still is as it's alwasy been: just an "off-road" package for the Legacy.

But, it's not really "off-road." It's just more capable in less-than-ideal conditions than the typical car. Of couse, living in the TC area, you never have a need for anything more "off-road" than that. Heck, even when I've been out to the badlands for MTBing I haven't had much use for the AWD. As I always say, if you need a serious off-road vehicle to get to the MTB trail you're not a good MTBer :crazy:

[Trevize1138]

From what I understand this year they started putting the thing on a truck frame to avoid the emissions and fuel consumption standards for passenger cars. If this is true then I guess they are moving away from a green image with good gas mileage and going for the green. If true I wouldn't buy one.
I heard that rumor, too, that they wanted to get it classified as a "light truck" but I don't think that's happened yet and when it did I don't believe they were going to rebuild it on a truck frame. It's still unibody.

[Trevize1138]

The Element has less to do with Honda's design team coming up with something square than it does with a more general Japanese trend toward square vehicles. It all started, believe it or not, with the popularity of customized Chevy Astro Vans in Japan.

I guess the 20-somethings in Japan will pay up to $4K in import fees just to get a late '80s or early '90s Astro from the US then fix it up and make it look cool. So, Honda released the Element, Toyota created the Scion xB and now Nissan is going to be releasing their Cube to America (already available in Japan.)

Speaking of, I test drove an xB a month or so ago and that car's got some decent room, too! If you're looking for a nice, affordible alternative, check that one out. Not much power on hills or passing at speed, but great MPG, low sticker price and enough room to throw two bikes upright in the back with the back seats down.

After my year of being car free I might pick myself up one of these. Seems ideal for people who want to spend their disposable income on fancy bikes rather than cars but still need a dependible box to port it in from place-to-place.

I'm perfectly okay with people liking the Element's looks, though I despise it (not as much as that new Scion box-on-wheels). I do think you need to consider that the dumb rear doors don't open without the front doors open (at least on the passenger side).

The thing that amuses me the most is how badly Honda seems to have missed their target market with the Element. In theory, as a mid-twenties, active male, I should be drooling over the Element. In fact, I hate it, and so does every person my age I've talked to. I see 30-something and 40-somethings driving it frequently, and teenaged pre-drivers like it.

[Trevize1138]

Ref the comment: "....hunting and fishing. That pile of junk Element couldn't get to any of the places that my Truck can go..."

First I am not a hunter nor a tree hugger per se: but these days why do hunters have to drive to where they hunt/fish? Used to be they walked - now they need a 4x4, a 4 wheeler etc. I have friends that have hunted for years that don't even go now due to these intrusive transportation methods......comments? I really want to know not bashing here.
I used to tag along with my dad when he'd go hunting in rural ND in an '85 Dodge pickup with RWD. That truck had no problem with gravel, rural roads and when you got to a spot you'd get out and walk. Hey, we had legs and knew how to use 'em. ;) Even if we needed to take a 4 wheeler doubletrack road it had no problems: just don't pretend you're rally racing. :hit:

In Montana the truck had no problems going over the mountains on the nice, paved roads there and then parking at trail heads to go hiking up to the Beartooth pass for 3 nights of camping and fishing for Trout. Mmm ... Trout with Lipton cheesy noodle packets! Yum. :)

[Trevize1138]

I drove an '02 Outback Sport until a month ago when I went car free. I still miss it. The OBS is actually on the Impreza platform, so it's smaller and quicker than the Legacy with the 4cyl, 2.5l motor. I took it on several trips to the ND badlands with 3 guys in the car, 3 bikes and equipment. We *just* fit.

The last trip we did this May was in my wife's Legacy (non-outback). Lots more room and lots more comfy as a result. Unless you're a glutton for that ugly, two-tone paint job, the Legacy L wagon is pretty nice. Just as much room as the Outback edition, same AWD system, same ABS system. Not as much ground clearance and not the same "off-road" suspension, but still plenty of capability off the pavement. All that and it's several thousand less than the Outback.

We got our '00 Legacy used for about $12K with 60K miles on it. Great deal. For the same price we could have gotten a used Outback but a '97 or '98 model with 2X the mileage. Didn't think it was worth it for a fancy paint job and suspension you'll never really use. ;)

[manual63]

Hey Shad, what if your other activities include hunting and fishing. That pile of junk Element couldn't get to any of the places that my Truck can go. I'm not one on square cars, I think Honda dropped the ball on this one. Where's the areodynamics in this thing. This car would not suit my needs as an outdoor person.
I once had a Silverado 2 wheel drive, mostly in Texas when I was in the Army. That thing got anywhere I needed to go. 4x4 is overkill about 90% of the time. I have friends who actually do 4x4 driving and some compititions. They need the 4x4 trucks with big suspension, but otherwise, it's just a cool image thing for most people. Hunters like to have trucks because they want to fit the image. You could certainly go hunting in an Element, but other hunter might shoot you because they all drive domestic 4x4 trucks and you are ruining the hunter image.

Since when is the Element a piece of crap? They get good mileage, better than those 4x4 trucks by far, have more usable space and will be much more reliable and longer lasting. I think people who have such strong things to say about the Element are more afraid of what a good vehicle design it is. In the mean time, Detroit can keep building vehicles with 30 plus year old ideas while the rest of the auto industry moves into the future.

Oh, by the way.....GM, Ford, and DC all have $6,000 plus rebates in their trucks and SUVs right now.........boy......that must mean they are selling like hotcakes!!

[thebionicman]

Subaru's can go offroad! I had a 1987 Subaru GL (the old box looking wagon), drove it till it had 225,000 miles on it. Then I gave it to a buddy who in turn drove it till it had 300,000. At that point it was so rusted out it was useless.

I used to live up in the U.P. of Michigan when I had the beast. I would go mudding with it, hill climbs in gravel pits (where I would beat most of the 4x4 trucks). That thing was a beast, FWD to 4x4 low to 4x4 high. In low you would top out at 35 mph in 5th gear. You could of pulled stumps out it was geared so low. I had that thing airbourne with 5 feet of air under the wheels. Used to plow through snow banks and it just kept on going. Man I miss that car.

By the way on the highway I would get 38 mpg out of it.

[Magic]

I don't buy a truck for gas mileage. And if you do your fooling yourself. As for the Element, ground clearance were is it. The first snow drift on the lake or rock outcropping would kill the Element. I drive what would suit my needs and that is a truck. 4 doors and a V8, not to be cool or drive the in crowd car but for my needs. 4X4's have there place in the world, I see not in yours. Grab an Element and come join icefishing, oh you can't because you can't get to the ice shack, to bad.

[Trevize1138]

Xtreme ice fishing action!

:crazy:

I don't buy a truck for gas mileage. And if you do your fooling yourself. As for the Element, ground clearance were is it. The first snow drift on the lake or rock outcropping would kill the Element. I drive what would suit my needs and that is a truck. 4 doors and a V8, not to be cool or drive the in crowd car but for my needs. 4X4's have there place in the world, I see not in yours. Grab an Element and come join icefishing, oh you can't because you can't get to the ice shack, to bad.

[Trevize1138]

Cool ... I never tried it with mine ... I figured with a $465/month payment (yeah, I screwed myself on options) I didn't want to see how well it flew :crazy:



Subaru's can go offroad! I had a 1987 Subaru GL (the old box looking wagon), drove it till it had 225,000 miles on it. Then I gave it to a buddy who in turn drove it till it had 300,000. At that point it was so rusted out it was useless.

I used to live up in the U.P. of Michigan when I had the beast. I would go mudding with it, hill climbs in gravel pits (where I would beat most of the 4x4 trucks). That thing was a beast, FWD to 4x4 low to 4x4 high. In low you would top out at 35 mph in 5th gear. You could of pulled stumps out it was geared so low. I had that thing airbourne with 5 feet of air under the wheels. Used to plow through snow banks and it just kept on going. Man I miss that car.

By the way on the highway I would get 38 mpg out of it.

[Tex]

I just bought an 02 Outback wagon at the beginning of July, and so far I love the thing. All I've ever owned in the past has been pick-ups, the last one being a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. But with our first child on the way I had to get something a bit more "family orientated". I test drove a bunch of lease return models and found that the 4 cylinders with the automatics were really slow, the 4 banger with a 5sp were a lot better. But Consumer Reports says to stay away from the older manual transmissions for whatever reason. So I opted for their 6 cylinder, it's a bit faster then the 4, and it still gets 29 mpg on the highway. Which may not be great milage these days, but it's WAY better then what I was getting in Tacoma with a V6. Plus, the one I got is the "L.L. Bean edition" so it's all pimped out with leather interior and dual sunroofs, and all that, it's quite a bit more plush compared to the Toyota.:cool:

Now I know the 04 Outbacks are coming with 250 horse power H6. One of my buddies went and test drove the 04 Legacy sport wagon, and he said he couldn't believe how fast the thing was for a wagon. So I would have to say, if you can afford it, get one of the 04 models. You would be the first one to the trailhead every time.

[soupboy]

...go for the Outback XT. 250hp/250ft/lb variation on the WRX STi powerplant. Same goes for the new Legacy GT (sedan or wagon). I've driven them both. I like them both. Unfortunately I will be acquiring neither as it will be the wyf's car.

DON'T get the H6 version of the car, I implore you. That model is for your grandma and/or those wearing Minnetonka Moccasins and LL Bean attire. Same HP rating, but dramatically less torque - a/k/a go juice. Oh yeah, and it costs more.

As for comparing to full-size trucks, well, that's the proverbial apple meet orange situation. As for comparing to mid-size and small SUV and SUV wannabes the Outback simply owns them. It has more clearance than my frickin ExploDer and gets significantly better mileage. One thing you may want to consider is your towing needs but my guess is that if you're looking at an Outback you're not planning on towing a boat or 4 snowmobiles.

Both are complete redesigns for 2005. Gorgeous. Gone is some of the Subaru JDM funk and in are some major upgrades in terms of fit and finish. The engines are simply glorious and will be easily upgradeable for those seeking even more power in the aftermarket (like me).

The only flaws IMO is that the MT is still a 5spd and not the 6spd variety from the STi. Would be nice to have a higher final drive of a 6th gear for calmer freeway cruising. That said, the cabin was nice at 75mph - no undue driveline/exhaust noise. The 5AT is solid with "sportshift" technology as well as shifter buttons on the steering wheel. Both engines were strong and, if consistent with WRX and STis, moderately underrated - i.e. there's more there than on the marketing material.

If you don't like/want/need the latest and greatest my guess is a good deal can be had on existing '04s that are now effectively NOS. Regardless of what model, if you want a Suby, I highly suggest you call Scott Putnam at Bloomington Acura Subaru or go to www.subaru.net (http://www.subaru.net/), his website. You will be hard pressed to find a better value on a new Subie in da $hitties.

Note, regardless of what you get it will NOT be faster or LOUDER than my WRX. This, I promise you.

Sean

[TrailPatrol]

As most of you may remember, I have been a big fan of Subaru for a long time, and we still have my '92 Legacy for bombing around town, but when it came time to look at a new vehicle, I looked as pick-ups, SUVs andthe entire Subie line, and decided to follow the lead of our emminent webmaster. I got a Caravan. Milage is okay, the room for STUFF is fantastic. Just got back from four days in the Ely area, and had room to spare, bikes on the back. Easy to get in and out of. I like it! You can get it with AWD (We didn't; ours is used) and we are planning to go home (NYS) for a couple weeks next spring, then ride parts of the Lewis & Clark Trail next summer/fall. This will make the trips much easier than trying to fit stuff into a Subaru. Speaking of fitting into Subarus, the main reason I looked at other vehicles in the first place was because I'm 5 inches taller and 75 pounds heavier than Lance, even if he does drive one.:crazy2:

Ride safe,
:banana:
Hans

[mtnbykr]

dare i say it but...i'm w/ hans on this one.

i really like my outback, butt, if i had to do it again, i'd get a minivan.
preferably the dodge. waaay more room, i could sleep in it, carry wood/cement, tow the trailer etc and still have a killer ride.

hey bikertex,

how the hell do you get 29mpg outta an h6?? i can't get 25 from my 4.

hans,

check your email....

kl

[TrailPatrol]

how the hell do you get 29mpg outta an h6?? hans,
check your email....kl
Downhill, bubba, downhill. According to the in-car computer, we were getting 62 MPH with a six...on the big hill on County 2 coming down into Two Harbors. :cool:

E-mail checked. I knew I should have stopped in there this weekend, but the day we were in Ely, they were closed.

Later,
:banana:
Hans

[soupboy]

...but my guess is 5'8", 160, making me 7" taller and 90 pounds heavier. I drive a WRX and I fit fine. More room than Jettas, 3 Series, Passats, etc...especially head room. I drove the new Legacy and Outback and for a young family I'd take the Outback. If I didn't already own a spiced up WRX, I'd take a Legacy GT Wagon 5MT all day, everyday, any day.

I will NOT succumb to the m-van...at least not yet. And if I was, it would be a Quest (love the powerplant) or the ubiquitous Odyssey.

Sean

As most of you may remember, I have been a big fan of Subaru for a long time, and we still have my '92 Legacy for bombing around town, but when it came time to look at a new vehicle, I looked as pick-ups, SUVs andthe entire Subie line, and decided to follow the lead of our emminent webmaster. I got a Caravan. Milage is okay, the room for STUFF is fantastic. Just got back from four days in the Ely area, and had room to spare, bikes on the back. Easy to get in and out of. I like it! You can get it with AWD (We didn't; ours is used) and we are planning to go home (NYS) for a couple weeks next spring, then ride parts of the Lewis & Clark Trail next summer/fall. This will make the trips much easier than trying to fit stuff into a Subaru. Speaking of fitting into Subarus, the main reason I looked at other vehicles in the first place was because I'm 5 inches taller and 75 pounds heavier than Lance, even if he does drive one.:crazy2:

Ride safe,
:banana:
Hans

[noise_is_life]

dare i say it but...i'm w/ hans on this one.

i really like my outback, butt, if i had to do it again, i'd get a minivan.
preferably the dodge. waaay more room, i could sleep in it, carry wood/cement, tow the trailer etc and still have a killer ride.
We looked at the caravan when we where shopping for our vehicle, but the Sienna wipes the floor with the Dodge.

[noise_is_life]

I will NOT succumb to the m-van...at least not yet. And if I was, it would be a Quest (love the powerplant) or the ubiquitous Odyssey.

Sean
Come on Sean, everybody's doing it, just bend over and try to relax, it doesn't hurt too much.

We looked at the Quest, it just didn't have as nice a feel as the Toyota, cheaper though.

If I put some ultra low profile wheels and a tin can muffler on my Sienna will I be cool?

[Trevize1138]

If I put some ultra low profile wheels and a tin can muffler on my Sienna will I be cool?
Only if you get a bike to match the paint job. Only then will you be cool, cool like Sean ...

[jonbodin]

I was faced with the dreaded minivan dilemma about 3 years ago when we were expecting our first child. My wife's family lives in North Dakota so we needed a bigger vehicle to haul everything associated with small children back and forth. We looked at minivans but ended up buying a Tahoe instead based on the greater space and just felt safer driving in the winter with a large truck based vehicle. Despite the horrid gas mileage, I don't regret that decision at all based on the security it provides for the long trips!

[noise_is_life]

I was faced with the dreaded minivan dilemma about 3 years ago when we were expecting our first child. My wife's family lives in North Dakota so we needed a bigger vehicle to haul everything associated with small children back and forth. We looked at minivans but ended up buying a Tahoe instead based on the greater space and just felt safer driving in the winter with a large truck based vehicle. Despite the horrid gas mileage, I don't regret that decision at all based on the security it provides for the long trips!
I can't really agree with that, I have driven both my in-laws Suburban and new Denali in the snow and feel much more confident in the Sienna. The Suburban had on-the-fly 4WD which just doesn't work as nicely as AWD and the AWD on the Denali just doesn't seem to work as well as it does on the Sienna (or the Outback), the wheels seem to loose traction much easier.

They are huge inside though, my in-laws drove the Denali to Jackson, WY last December packed with a ton of stuff including a good sized Xmas tree.

[manual63]

I was faced with the dreaded minivan dilemma about 3 years ago when we were expecting our first child. My wife's family lives in North Dakota so we needed a bigger vehicle to haul everything associated with small children back and forth. We looked at minivans but ended up buying a Tahoe instead based on the greater space and just felt safer driving in the winter with a large truck based vehicle. Despite the horrid gas mileage, I don't regret that decision at all based on the security it provides for the long trips!
Since when is a Tahoe safe? Have you ever looked at crash statisitcs and test data? Almost all minivans have a 5 star crash rating and the Tahoe is like 3 or something. It had serious issues in the frontal impact test. The frame bent and caused the driver and passenger cabin to crush both occupents. Just because it's a bigger vehicle, does not mean it's safer. Not to mention, it has a much higher chance of rolling too.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2002SUVs.html

Maybe if people would do a little research before they just assume something is safer. Many people will do this when buying a bicycle, but when buying a car......all logic goes flying out the window.

[manual63]

Here is a link to the ratings on Vans. Note that this includes all vans, not just minivans.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2002Vans.html

I would say they fair better than SUVs and Pickups.

[Magic]

What is your major malfunction in life Shad? You'd say black if we all said white. I don't get your hate towards Trucks, SUV's and most other transportaion out there. We all drive what works for us and our daily lives. Your world must be pretty hum drum with the attitude you look at it.

[transplant]

What is your major malfunction in life Shad? You'd say black if we all said white. I don't get your hate towards Trucks, SUV's and most other transportaion out there. We all drive what works for us and our daily lives. Your world must be pretty hum drum with the attitude you look at it.
I'm not defending Shad's position on this matter. Heck, I drive a Jeep Cherokee and would go bigger if there wasn't a company car in the future. But I will defend his right to state his opinion in here. These forums are for discussions, and it seems to me, based on your statement, that if the opinions don't match yours, they're wrong. I think all Shad is trying to do is to get us to see another side of the coin. Maybe even stir the pot a bit. Leave the personal attacks aside. They're not neccesary.
Hey Shad: "Black!" Now bring it on.

[Trevize1138]

Tsk, tsk, jonbodin, you'll learn soon enough to never, never praise an SUV on this board. The anti-SUV police jump all over anybody that dares to do that. :crazy2: :crazy2: They only believe in freedom of choice when it comes to abortion, not buying SUV's. :confused:http://www.planetquake.com/sven/images/jack.gif





(stupid program actually requires me to type something, not just post a picture ... bah!)

[transplant]

That's hilarious!:scream: :scream: :scream:

[Magic]

It's not a personal attack. I don't like people gramming there thoughts or ideas down my throat. His dislike of SUV's or trucks is his choice. Just don't preach to me on what I should drive. If it's taken as an attack, that's his deal. I am only voicing my opinion also. If that is what these forums or for or just what Shad says goes. NOT, homey don't play that. When he bashes what others drive, that's not an opinion it's an attack. If so, he should voice it in a different mannor.

[manual63]

Hey, when someone states something is safer than something else, I put the facts out there. A minivan is safer than an SUV in my opinion and also in the NHTSA and the Insurance companies eyes. So I just wanted to state that fact.

Of course I am against people buying SUVs on false premises. People are mislead to think they are a safe and a better vehicle. I put my opinion out there to inform, not to tell people they can't buy something. You have the freedom to choose, but I think it should be a knowledged educated choice.

People jump all over me for stating my opinion...........I kind of like it. That means my opinion is worth something.....:).

[manual63]

Shad thinks it's up to him to "educate" us in the error of our ways. He thinks SUV's are planet killers and he can't get over the inadequacy he feels when driving his small cars so he picks on others. :p
Now that's funny. Maybe if I could not afford an SUV, this could be true. But since I choose to buy a smaller car for more practical reasons, I don't think that would make me feel inadequate. If I felt that way, I would run out and buy a big SUV like all the others who feel inadequate and buy them...:etard:

[manual63]

I'm not defending Shad's position on this matter. Heck, I drive a Jeep Cherokee and would go bigger if there wasn't a company car in the future. But I will defend his right to state his opinion in here. These forums are for discussions, and it seems to me, based on your statement, that if the opinions don't match yours, they're wrong. I think all Shad is trying to do is to get us to see another side of the coin. Maybe even stir the pot a bit. Leave the personal attacks aside. They're not neccesary.
Hey Shad: "Black!" Now bring it on.
WHITE!!!!!

[EmL34]

A minivan is safer than an SUV in my opinion and also in the NHTSA and the Insurance companies eyes. So I just wanted to state that fact.
:).
What is the fact here? That this is your opinion?

RE: NHTSA and Insurance Institute - everyone has an axe to grind and they are likely to view statistics in a manner that confirms or contradicts their initial position. This cuts both ways.

Confrontational 'education' only seems to make this more obvious.

[manual63]

What is your major malfunction in life Shad? You'd say black if we all said white. I don't get your hate towards Trucks, SUV's and most other transportaion out there. We all drive what works for us and our daily lives. Your world must be pretty hum drum with the attitude you look at it.
The problem is the words "We all" in this quote. Maybe you drive a Truck because you need one, but don't speak for all those who buy them. A lot of city dwellers buy big 4X4's for image, flash, and the idea that they are safer, which they are not. I don't have anything against you or that fact you drive a truck. So, you don't need to go running around defending yourself so much.

By the way.....my major malfunction is that I think and I care about people and the planet. I wish I could just not think and do whatever society tells me too, but I don't see that as a good path into the future. Life would be so much easier for me if I didn't think.

[manual63]

What is the fact here? That this is your opinion?

RE: NHTSA and Insurance Institute - everyone has an axe to grind and they are likely to view statistics in a manner that confirms or contradicts their initial position. This cuts both ways.

Confrontational 'education' only seems to make this more obvious.
You are right, but the fact is that the research is there. If you look at the statitics, you can see the most of the Foriegn competitors make much safer vehicles than the domestic ones. Heck, I even see some KIAs rated higher than domestic vehicles......now that's scary. The tests are all the same no matter what the vehicle is. So take it for what it's worth. I am just glad someone is out there testing these vehicles......it can only help make them safer.

[manual63]

You don't care about homeless people though. You won't even give them any money when they need it. You did say that. :p
Maybe you could state the whole thing, but instead you did the Republican thing and took just one little piece of what I stated to make it sound worse than it was.

I stated I would not give a homeless person my money because they will more than likely buy drugs or alcohol with it.

Once a guy asked me for money so he could take the bus home. I didn't want to just give him my money, so I offered to pay the bus fair for him. He didn't want me to do that, he just wanted the money. So it was obvious he didn't want the money for a bus ride. Another friend of mine offered to buy a guy a hamburger because he wanted some change for food, but the guy turned him down. If you are starving and need food, wouldn't a hamburger be pretty filling? Oh, maybe he was a vegetarian.......:laugh:

[Magic]

The majority of people don't buy big ticket items because of image or it's cool. I drive a truck for my uses. That's cool that you want to inform others, but let them make there own choice with your opinion being stated. I normally don't get into these p^ssing matches, but the slamming of what others chose to drive is getting old. So in turn I had to voice my own opinion. I also care for the planet and the people and things that live in it. But my choice to drive a truck is my right as an american. That's what makes America great. We all can voice our opinions, just as long as it's not cramming them down others throats. I to get alot of flak for voicing my side of things, but I can listen to others and their perception of what they think is right for them. I'm not trying to come off as an a$$hole, but sometimes you just got to get your 2 cents in.:)

[manual63]

Just a reminder of what this thread was about in the beginning before it degenerated into SUV bashing again. :cryin:
What's funny is that I brought up the Honda Element as a good choice for a mountain bikers vehicle and I got bashed by 4X4 truck lovers for stating an Element on this board. So that's kinda what started it.......someone just had to put a flame under me........that's dangerous.....:crazy:

[transplant]

WHITE!!!!!AAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! Black, black, black! And by the way, the Element is an ugly turd of a vehicle, but not as bad as an Aztek.

[TrailPatrol]

I think all Shad is trying to do is to get us to see another side of the coin. Maybe even stir the pot a bit. Hey Shad: "Black!" Now bring it on.
Yeah, and he won't wear a helmet either!!!!:crazy2:

Shad has the esteemed role of the MORC forum equivalent of Oscar the Grouch. He doesn't like helmets or SUVs. (In fact, I am naming my next Cat D-12 Fire Plow after him.) Oh yeah, or Republicans, conservatives or authority figures. Does that about cover it? He hasn't weighed in on proofreading or spellchecking yet, but they are affronts to personal freedom, so I bet he doesn't approve. :D

As for the rest of us? Well, he makes us think.

TTFN
Hans

[manual63]

AAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! Black, black, black! And by the way, the Element is an ugly turd of a vehicle, but not as bad as an Aztek.
WHITE!!!

And both the Element and Aztek are beautiful!!!

:geek:

[manual63]

Shad has the esteemed role of the MORC forum equivalent of Oscar the Grouch.
Do you think Oscar the Grouch is really Grouchy??

I think he is just havin' fun......:D.

[transplant]

Yeah, and he won't wear a helmet either!!!!:crazy2:
Well that explains a lot, now doesn't it? Too many tree branches to the melon can really skew someone.:D
OK, try this. "GRAY!" Now what'cha got?

[EmL34]

Hey, I think the element is just fine. Charles, I am taking you to the nearest Honda dealer because you have to buy one now.

[manual63]

Well that explains a lot, now doesn't it? Too many tree branches to the melon can really skew someone.:D
OK, try this. "GRAY!" Now what'cha got?
GRAY is "#CCCCCC"!!!

So "#333333"!!! is what I got.....so take that!!!!

[bkyatty]

I think we all agree that if you want ot drive an SUV or truck for the right reasons we are all cool with it. I guess the problem is that many are not driving them for the right reasons, using all the options, or using the space they take up. If you need a SUV or truck to haul your boat or to drive through snow, or pack it with tons of sporting equip, pets or whatever, that's fine. The problem is that most people (who will never see this forum) don't use a 1/4 of the space that is there. Just drive anywhere and imagine if the people really NEED the size. At target the other day, I played "count the SUV" game with my wife. 9 of the 1st 11 spots on my left were SUVs and 8 of 9 on my right. (she ended the game b/c she thought i was obnoxious) One was parked half way in a spot with it propped up on the curb/median. It just amazed me that everyone that needed these vehicles were shopping at target that day. To whoever started the outback question, I would look at a Jetta or Passat wagon. I love my golf, but the little extra space would be great.

[transplant]

We all can voice our opinions, just as long as it's not cramming them down others throats. I to get alot of flak for voicing my side of things, but I can listen to others and their perception of what they think is right for them. I'm not trying to come off as an a$$hole, but sometimes you just got to get your 2 cents in.:)
That's what's so cool about these forums. This vs. that, I'm right, you're not. But I didn't see Shad asking you if you had a "malfunction" because you voiced an opinion that didn't jive with his. I also didn't see him cramming his ideas down your throat. He only stated facts as he saw them, right or wrong. Reply in kind, refute with facts of your own. You definitely have a right to your opinion, no question, and you have the right to ignore what you don't find to be copacetic. Let's agree to disagree, but in a freindly manner. 'K?
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread!

[jonbodin]

Wow, I never thought giving my opinion would cause such a firestorm!! Like Troy said, I bought the Tahoe based on choice not that I disliked minivans or any other vehicle. For me the Tahoe was a better choice. The safety issue was more of a 'feel' as versus crash tests. My wife said she just felt safer in a bigger and heavier vehicle compared to the smaller SUV's or minivans. I'm sure I'll get 'roasted' for this!!!

[manual63]

On no!!! Don't get me started on VW....

I own a 2001 GTI and it's had nothing but problems. Not only that, but the VW Customer Service when I had issues, still under warranty, I was treated like SH@#!!!

Again, just my experience and opinion..........sorry for that.

[manual63]

Wow, I never thought giving my opinion would cause such a firestorm!! Like Troy said, I bought the Tahoe based on choice not that I disliked minivans or any other vehicle. For me the Tahoe was a better choice. The safety issue was more of a 'feel' as versus crash tests. My wife said she just felt safer in a bigger and heavier vehicle compared to the smaller SUV's or minivans. I'm sure I'll get 'roasted' for this!!!
Nope, you said it the way you meant it. It Felt safer.

But if there was a roasted person icon on the right, I would give it to you.....:D.

[transplant]

Wow, I never thought giving my opinion would cause such a firestorm!! Like Troy said, I bought the Tahoe based on choice not that I disliked minivans or any other vehicle. For me the Tahoe was a better choice. The safety issue was more of a 'feel' as versus crash tests. My wife said she just felt safer in a bigger and heavier vehicle compared to the smaller SUV's or minivans. I'm sure I'll get 'roasted' for this!!!I have to admit it: When our Odyssey went to the shop for recall work, we were given a Tahoe. I liked it a lot, I FELT more secure, yadda, yadda. It had all the bells and whistles of the Odyssey, but with 4wd. I still like the minvan, however, for the mileage, plus there was more room than in the Tahoe (maybe that's my perception). I also prefer the pimpy gold color of out Odyssey over the plain "WHITE" of the Tahoe.

[Magic]

No Tom, I felt the fact that Shads bashing all the time about Suv's and 4x4's is like cramming it down my throat. And as for attacking people, where is your voice when Shad says things like " just like a republican". Your politcal democrafic has nothing to do with anything. Just call an equal playing field for all. And asking what someones major malfunction is, is not an attack. It's a question just like asking someone " who p^ssed in your cheerios". If you read all the way back you'll see where I'm coming from. If not oh well, life goes on.

[bkyatty]

shad- are you the one who wrote all about the gti on freethinkerunite. i thought you loved the car. I think all car shops who have to deal with warranty issues act like there is a red owl up their a$$.

[manual63]

No Tom, I felt the fact that Shads bashing all the time about Suv's and 4x4's is like cramming it down my throat. And as for attacking people, where is your voice when Shad says things like " just like a republican". Your politcal democrafic has nothing to do with anything. Just call an equal playing field for all. And asking what someones major malfunction is, is not an attack. It's a question just like asking someone " who p^ssed in your cheerios". If you read all the way back you'll see where I'm coming from. If not oh well, life goes on.
How does informing people about what I know and think considered bashing anyway? Am I bashing people when I give them pointers on how to bunnyhop?

All you none bunnyhopping fools just don't know what's up.....:eyeroll:.

I mean really....if you don't want to bunnyhop, that's fine with me. But I don't think your offended because I tell others how to do it.......are you???

[syntaxjunkie]

Hey, I think the element is just fine. Charles, I am taking you to the nearest Honda dealer because you have to buy one now.

I'll further complicate things by saying that I think that the Element looks like a Mini, as designed by a U.S. government subcommittee: A solid premise taken in all of the wrong directions. At once.

That's just my opinion. For all of those who love and/or own an Element, I apologize if this sentiment offends you. As cars go, it just ain't me.

[bkyatty]

this forum cracks me up. oh here is a joke from our friends at drunkcyclist.com
LITTLE DAVID ON ...GETTING OLDER
Little David was sitting on a park bench munching on one candy bar after another.
After the 6th one, a man on the bench across from him said, "Son, you know eating all that candy isn't good for you. It will give you acne, rot your teeth, and make you fat."
Little David replied, "My grandfather lived to be 107 years old."
"Oh?" replied the man. "Did your grandfather eat 6 candy bars at a time?"
"No" replied Little David, "he minded his own f------ business!!"

[manual63]

shad- are you the one who wrote all about the gti on freethinkerunite. i thought you loved the car. I think all car shops who have to deal with warranty issues act like there is a red owl up their a$$.
Are you plugging my site?? http://www.freethinkersunite.com

I do like the GTI as far as fuel economy, safety, performance, and it being practical for me. But, it has had a ton of mechanical issues that are unacceptable for a new car. I have a stack of like 25 or so papers from the first 1 1/2 years I owned the car.

I do plan on writing about the VW issues I have had on my site. I just have not had much time to update it recently. Notice, you don't see any VWs in the Auto section.......but you do see the new Colorado there.....yep, it's a Domestic........which is mostly made in Mexico and now China.......weeeeee!

[transplant]

No Tom, I felt the fact that Shads bashing all the time about Suv's and 4x4's is like cramming it down my throat. And as for attacking people, where is your voice when Shad says things like " just like a republican". Your politcal democrafic has nothing to do with anything. Just call an equal playing field for all. And asking what someones major malfunction is, is not an attack. It's a question just like asking someone " who p^ssed in your cheerios". If you read all the way back you'll see where I'm coming from. If not oh well, life goes on.Touche! As a Rep. myself, I don't take offense when Shad states "just like a Republican". If he's got facts to back a comparison, or that phrase, that's great. Maybe it's true. Now if he was always saying "Do it my way, buy what I say because of what I say", that's cramming. All he's doing is presenting facts so you can make a choice based on them. Or not. To me, back in the day, asking someone if they had a malfunction was not a great way to continue a discussion. It meant that a person had run out of thoughtful things to say and was just lashing out. If you weren't doing that, my apologies. And life does go on. Maybe in a future thread, you and I will be on the same side!

[Magic]

Rock on Tom, I see all the sides. If I came across as harsh or an a$$ I'm sorry. We'll all be reading this with a little laugh and some thought in between.

[transplant]

Rock on Tom, I see all the sides. If I came across as harsh or an a$$ I'm sorry. We'll all be reading this with a little laugh and some thought in between.
Ditto. Now tell me how this relates to Subarus again.

[Trevize1138]

puppies and kittens are cute.

[Tex]

I still think the Subi is a good "non SUV-4 wheel drive-not quite a mini van yet, but I'm sure someday I'll have to get one-wish I still had my pick up-but the milage aint too bad, I wish it was better, but it gets better milage than the pick up so that's cool" vehicle.
Dude, just go buy the Subaru, and let's close this thread down.

[TrailPatrol]

"Drive defensively. Buy a tank." :crazy2:

And to heck with the miles per gallon.

Ride safer,
:banana:
Hans

[EmL34]

Are you plugging my site?? http://www.freethinkersunite.com (http://www.freethinkersunite.com/)

This site does not represent free thinking. It should be called www.myleftyopinion.org (http://www.myleftyopinion.org).

How can any person who really thinks for himself happen to agree with every position of either party?

[mtnbykr]

man am i sorry i read all this crap. must be like a train wreck, ya just can't turn away....

buy whatever you want. an outback will serve you well. i think imba (http://www.imba.com) still has an incentive program (cheep price or free rack). check it out.


kl

[manual63]

This site does not represent free thinking. It should be called www.myleftyopinion.org (http://www.myleftyopinion.org).

How can any person who really thinks for himself happen to agree with every position of either party?
I just state free thinking opinions. It's not a lefty site. Tell me exactly what's left about it? I don't agree with a lot things from both parties. Unfortunately, because of a seriously messed up system, our choices are limited.

By the way, if you respond to this, please do it in the Non-Biking Discussion area.......Thanks.

[EmL34]

I just state free thinking opinions. It's not a lefty site. Tell me exactly what's left about it? It's is 100% obvious that this is a left site but here's what jumps out in 5 minutes:

SUV=environmental catastrophe foisted upon america by Evil corps.
Corporation=Evil
Bush=Evil
The Wealthy=Evil
McDonalds=Evil
Credit Card Companies=Evil
Republicans=Evil
Banks, brokers, Mortgage and insurance companies= Evil
The court system=Evil
Oil industry=Evil
People who don't agree with these opinions=Idiots
Number of articles or opinions expressed that criticize anyone or anything to the left of GWB= 0

Sadly, I agree that the ills you are pointing out should be on our national agenda, I just do not see how ths web site is in any way constructively approaching any solutions.

Sorry, I wanted to reply on this thread. I would be happy to share my opinions and discuss this further with you in person at the annual meeting, or during a ride some time. If the weather holds out I am planning on hitting Leb tonight. Interested?

[transplant]

puppies and kittens are cute.
That depends. Are they Republican or Democrat?

[manual63]

Sadly, I agree that the ills you are pointing out should be on our national agenda, I just do not see how ths web site is in any way constructively approaching any solutions.

Well, if this is your opinion, I accomplished my goal with the site. It could be just any other political site, but it's not......it's a direct approach that either makes people think or makes them mad. That's the goal and so far, it's works great.

As far as talking off line, I am always happy to do it. But on bike rides and bike events, we kind of made the rule of not bringing politics into it. It's an unwritten rule, Dave, Chris, and I came up with.......so we could all ride in peace and have a good time. Heck, Tom could even join me for a ride and I would not say a political thing the whole time........:). He probably doesn't believe me, but that's how it is.

[fasterfoster]

SUV=environmental catastrophe foisted upon america by Evil corps.
Corporation=Evil
Bush=Evil
The Wealthy=Evil
McDonalds=Evil
Credit Card Companies=Evil
Republicans=Evil
Banks, brokers, Mortgage and insurance companies= Evil
The court system=Evil
Oil industry=Evil
People who don't agree with these opinions=Idiots
Number of articles or opinions expressed that criticize anyone or anything to the left of GWB= 0
Hey, I agree with most of that! But I'm wondering how this helps Charles decide whether (I think I used "whether" correctly!) he should buy an Outback!

[KleinCrazy]

Hey, I agree with most of that! But I'm wondering how this helps Charles decide whether (I think I used "whether" correctly!) he should buy an Outback!
Bah,

Screw it all and buy German!!

Audi is the only good AWD system out there. not for Off-Road use certainly, but winter roads are nothin, and in the summer it is a blast.

Now if US would only wake up and alow them to import the TDI versions.

Now I just have to wait for the A3 Sportwagon to ake it over here... sigh... 3 year wait.

[syntaxjunkie]

Hey, I agree with most of that! But I'm wondering how this helps Charles decide whether (I think I used "whether" correctly!) he should buy an Outback!

Well, as anyone who works with me will tell you, I've never met an argument I didn't like. So it's actually been kinda fun.

I'd love to swing an Audi, but the truth is that I don't necessarily have that kind of income to dispose of. Plus, living in a Minneapolis neighborhood with no garage, I'm a bit hesitant to have anything so ostentatious in my driveway (until I can protect it with landmines).

So my current brilliant idea is to try and pluck a 2004 Outback off a lot somewhere in town on the (relatively) cheap whilst the dealerships are making room for 2005s. Wish me luck...

[manual63]

http://www.net-monster.com/blather_suvs_part1.html

Sheeeeeesh!

I am not the only SUV hater. At least this guy backs up his claims with lots of data.

On Topic:

Just get the Subaru. They are good cars that last a long time. Plus, they are a lot of fun to drive........you must get a manual if you can.

[TrailPatrol]

Okay, so Charles is going to get an '04 Subaru. Is there any reason to keep this thread open any longer???? John? Oh John...are you there? :crazy2:

If he's made his decision, do we really need to go on discussing the merits of Sherman Tanks vs. 2-door Specks???

:banana:
Hans

[EmL34]

Well, if this is your opinion, I accomplished my goal with the site. It could be just any other political site, but it's not......it's a direct approach that either makes people think or makes them mad. That's the goal and so far, it's works great.

That's not the conclusion I would reach. I am as repulsed by those arguments as I am by Rush Limbaugh. In fact, that website is a mirror reflection. Perhaps this works for many people, but I for one like to listen to thoughtful arguments.

[Trevize1138]

Any SUV out there would get its butt kicked by the Knight 2000. Kit would just ram one head-on and the SUV would be destroyed whilst KITT wouldn't even get scratched ... you'd see that little cylon-style red roving light shine through all the smoke in the aftermath.

Then he'd go drive off and pick up David Hasselhoff to kick KARR's butt! Remember that episode with Goliath, the semi truck that was build like KITT? Man, that ruled ... I waited all friggin' summer to find out how the collision turned out.

http://www.pp.htv.fi/jterho1/drawings/kitt/season-1-dvd.png

[Trevize1138]

Check it out, KARR was just the KITT Outback edition!

http://knightrideronline.com/atoz/images/karr.jpg

But, man ... nothing was uglier than the new KITT in the uglified redesign of the new Camaro body:

http://knightrideronline.com/atoz/images/kift.jpg

[manual63]

Hey, some others cars talked in the '80s too.

Remember......"Your door is ajar......your door is ajar" in a nice female voice. Then you have your own reply......."Not it's not! It's a F#@#ing door!" in an annoyed guys voice.

[Trevize1138]

You know, I just realized something.

Star Trek, The Next Generation, had that whole Data/Lore thing going on where Lore was the 1st model with emotions but he was way unstable and, therefore, evil and Data was the updated model without emotions therefore stable and good.

Well, that's a *total* ripoff of the KARR/KITT thing from Knight Rider! It's the same plot: brother computer things that battle in an epic good vs evil struggle.

And here I thought Star Trek was original and cool ...

[manual63]

Just drop it......Star Trek will never be what Star Wars is.

John, when are you going to close this thread.......it's just killing me.......and Hans....and....

[Aaroneous]

Shad, I think you meant "Star Trek will never be was Star Wars was."

[Trevize1138]

The light saber fight between Obi Wan, Qui Gon Jin and Darth Maul excepted, of course ... that was freakin' AWESOME!

Shad, I think you meant "Star Trek will never be was Star Wars was."

[TrailPatrol]

Warden John, place this cellblock in LOCKDOWN! Please. We have gone from Subarus and Caravans to Sherman Tanks, pick-em-up trucks, Democrats, Republicans and the Starship Enterprise. Please John! Before Shad feels compelled to answer yet another off-thread post!

"Only you can help us, Obi-John!" :crazy2:

(What about Battlestar Gallactica?) :alien:

:banana:
Hans

[noise_is_life]

I just popped in to see what was going on in this crazy thread, boy am I sorry...:sick:

Isn't the rule that if David Hasselhof is mentioned in a thread that the thread is dead.

[manual63]

I don't know Captn'.....I think the phaser is more powerful than that Jedi Sword thing.

[EmL34]

So which is more sci-fi (Star Trek vs. Star Wars)?

[Tex]

All right, that does it, this thread is dead to me.

[manual63]

All right, that does it, this thread is dead to me.
Maybe if you had the force and did some Jedi training, you could close this thread with your mind!!!

[Trevize1138]

So which is more sci-fi (Star Trek vs. Star Wars)?
I covered that topic once:

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/07/star_trek.html

[EmL34]

I covered that topic once:

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/07/star_trek.html
Hey, this site is funny, and witty. Some of you guys are okay after all. :)

[noise_is_life]

I covered that topic once:

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/07/star_trek.html
That's pretty funny, oh wait I mean it's totally stupid and gay.

[noise_is_life]

Maybe if you had the force and did some Jedi training, you could close this thread with your mind!!!
Or you could just hit it with a full spread of photon torpedoes.:sick:

[manual63]

Or you could just hit it with a full spread of photon torpedoes.:sick:
That would be after you watched it grow on your big screen for awhile.......

[Trevize1138]

That's pretty funny, oh wait I mean it's totally stupid and gay.
No, you're totally stupid and gay and so's yo momma.

[Aaroneous]

I'm pretty sure everyone who continues to post on this thread is stupid and gay...... Oh, wait...

[soupboy]

...that's right, it's back.

Pat - yes, low pro's and hi-flow exhaust kits make any vehicle much more gooderer. A coffee can muffler does nothing - it must be SS, 3"+ diameter, mandrel bent and originate at the motor. The VTEC fart burpers don't count.

ChrisD - yes, all bike and car purchases should be consider in parallel as color coordination is key. If I had a $1 for everthing blue I own I'd be...well, rich enough to buy Happy Meals for every MORCer for a week.

James - Kraut-mobiles are overrated. It's factual. A greasy bratwurst ain't got nothing on whole grain rice baby. That said, I do like the hard-core, super tuned variety - think S4 dropping 400+WHP and 400+WTQ. That is cool. But I could have two STis for the money...or one tricked out STi and a baker's dozen high end bikes.

So, the real question is - was the Suby purchased?

I'm still waiting for "real" SUV with a "real" engine a la the TDI Land Cruiser (OZ spec) that's got power, performance, room AND mileage.

Sean

PS - Anyone who contradicts what I say is, by default, a stupid, fancy person with great fashion sense.

[thebionicman]

think S4 dropping 400+WHP and 400+WTQ. That is cool. But I could have two STis for the money...or one tricked out STi and a baker's dozen high end bikes.
But it sure is fun to ride in a 2.7 biturbo with a set of K04s in it. Tends to leave the STI behind them. Though the STI is sweet to, minus the ironing board on the trunk.

Figured we should make this thread fun again.

[manual63]

I love Audi's and how they drive. Quattro, power, good handling, and nice features.

Problem is, they are way to expensive to buy and maintain. Oh, and VW did a pretty good job making sure I will never, ever be a customer of theirs again.

I am a born again Ricer......yep.....go Subie!!!!

[soupboy]

Indeed. If I were to get an STi it would be sans wing. Don't get me wrong, the Kraut-mobiles are nice, but comparable and yes, gasp, even better performance can be had from Nippon and still leave you with money for your honey.

I just enjoy the fact that every R32, S4, 330, or, heck, modded 1.8T owner feels morally obligated to offer up the high speed freeway pass. Maybe it just me...

It's the Teutonic plague I tell you.

Sean

But it sure is fun to ride in a 2.7 biturbo with a set of K04s in it. Tends to leave the STI behind them. Though the STI is sweet to, minus the ironing board on the trunk.

Figured we should make this thread fun again.

[manual63]

Speaking of upgrades. I plan to get some coil overs for my '91 Honda Prelude si. I will be able to lower it for summer driving and raise it for winter driving. I also plan to get a K&N filter and modify the intake so it is shielded from the heat and gets much colder air to the engine. I already have an aftermarket High Performance muffler, so I should be able to add another 8 or so HP to this car getting close to 150 HP, including the few HP I gained from the muffler. It's was already pretty fast at 135 stock HP. The coil overs will make it handle better, but I still need to get new wheels and tires.

It's a fun car to work on and best of all, I know it will last me a long time because is only has about 95,000 miles on it.

[manual63]

I just enjoy the fact that every R32, S4, 330, or, heck, modded 1.8T owner feels morally obligated to offer up the high speed freeway pass. Maybe it just me...

My VW GTI has the 1.8T in it. It rocks on the freeway!!! It takes a downshift and a foot to the floor to rapidly gain 20 or so MPH and blow by/pass anything!!! Yep, turbo's with little lag are sweeeeet indeed.

[soupboy]

...I let them pass me. I'm too old, or mature [;)], to play 100mph freeway racerboy.

As for the Prelude, one word - supercharger. The VTECs take to forced induction like a fat kid to chocolate cake.

And, yes, that means I like chocolate cake.

Sean


My VW GTI has the 1.8T in it. It rocks on the freeway!!! It takes a downshift and a foot to the floor to rapidly gain 20 or so MPH and blow by/pass anything!!! Yep, turbo's with little lag are sweeeeet indeed.

[manual63]

As for the Prelude, one word - supercharger. The VTECs take to forced induction like a fat kid to chocolate cake.
'91's don't have a VTECH. That's 92's and up. Mine still has the low '80's style body. It's a 2.0 DOHC motor that puts out 135 HP stock. I think the base '92 and up put out 160 HP or so.......unless it's a Type H, then it's 200 HP.

I don't think I will throw that kind of money at it anyway. I might get a Scion xB someday, and then throw a supercharger in that. That would still only cost me about $17,000 or so........and it would be really fast. A 170 or so HP supercharged 2300 pound box.........now that would be cool!!!!!

[funky-funky-chicken]

I just enjoy the fact that every R32, S4, 330, or, heck, modded 1.8T owner feels morally obligated to offer up the high speed freeway pass. Maybe it just me...Sean
I feel the same way, only reverse... I drive a VW R32. Why is it that everyone with a WRX seems to want to have a go. I'm not out for freeway antics...

As for forced induction, I would like to set up the R32 with a nice little VF-Engineering Stage 1 super-charger at some point. I just haven't figured out how to sneak that one passed the wife.:cool: 240hp = fun, 320 would= funner

[soupboy]

...that was probably me anyway :D!

If I were buying a new car today the R32 would be on my list. I'd describe it as refined fun relative to the rice-rockets. Not as fast, but exponentially more elegant and polished, especially in fit and finish. The only thing I really hated, yes, hated, about the R32 is that it felt like I was sitting up really high even with the seat as low as it can go. It felt like I was tipping over (me, not the car) in corners. My WRX seat at its highest point (where I drive it) still feels lower than the R32 in its lowest position.

IMO I think VW could have done so much more with that car, especially after being 3 years late on the scene vs. the WRX. With that powerplant and driveline it should have been an affordable S4, not some other muted version. The exhaust sounds nice on the outside, but I like to hear some of it on the inside to give me a better feel of what the engine is doing without looking at the tach.

400WHP/WTQ should be readily achievable with that vehicle. I'm sure the local Audi/VW tuners are already working on it.

'Tis easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. Just disappear for a weekend and hit www.grdperformance.com (http://www.grdperformance.com) in Naperthrill, Illini. They do solid Audi/VW/Suby/EVO AWD tuning. Ask for Tuan. He da man and rides around in a highly modded S4 (6cyl bi-sexual turbo).

Sean

I feel the same way, only reverse... I drive a VW R32. Why is it that everyone with a WRX seems to want to have a go. I'm not out for freeway antics...

As for forced induction, I would like to set up the R32 with a nice little VF-Engineering Stage 1 super-charger at some point. I just haven't figured out how to sneak that one passed the wife.:cool: 240hp = fun, 320 would= funner

[manual63]

Not as fast, but exponentially more elegant and polished, especially in fit and finish.
May appear to be that way on the showroom floor, but as soon as you start driving it, the fit and finish will astonishingly disappear. Then, when you go back to VW to have them fix it, they will do repairs that make it worse. Then they will treat you like crap for complaining about it.

Nope, they lost a customer who could have been a loyal VW owner. After owning my GTI and having all the issues, I started to do some research. Made in Brazil. Oh, and many of the parts, some of which I had to have replaced, are made in countries I can't even think of the name of. Sorry.....it's not a German product.

[soupboy]

..but then again neither are most Honda's or Mitsus. Many are assembled here in the good ol' U, S of A with parts and sub assemblies coming from the 4 corners of Earth.

For the record, I can honestly say I've never heard a VW or Audi owner that had good things to say about their vehicles' reliability or the makers' CS. I've got a friend that drove nothing but Audis from age 16 through his late 20s. Every last one of them had major SNAFUs, most often with electrical bits. Imagine that, you're in a go fast car, but the HVAC doesn't work and you can't put the windows down cuz they're power units. He now drives a Honda mini-van.

Those Audis were the nicest cars I never wanted to own.

Sean

[manual63]

Those Audis were the nicest cars I never wanted to own.

That says it all.......

[thebionicman]

Shad,

On the list of upgrades for you car I wouldn't count out a header. I had a 92 Accord with the F22 engine in it. It was a noticable change and I went cheap with a Pacesetter Header. Pretty easy install.

Carefull on coilovers, you are going to want to do a little research. If you go the cheaper route and go with the sleave type you are going to need replace the struts and shocks along with getting ones that won't get totally corroded with the salt. I have a friend with an S4 with H&R coilovers on it ($1400 model) and after one winter he can't get them to move. So he is stuck with it lowered year around.

Plus if you change the ride height you also need to have your alignment done.

[funky-funky-chicken]

May appear to be that way on the showroom floor, but as soon as you start driving it, the fit and finish will astonishingly disappear. Then, when you go back to VW to have them fix it, they will do repairs that make it worse. Then they will treat you like crap for complaining about it.

Nope, they lost a customer who could have been a loyal VW owner. After owning my GTI and having all the issues, I started to do some research. Made in Brazil. Oh, and many of the parts, some of which I had to have replaced, are made in countries I can't even think of the name of. Sorry.....it's not a German product.
Sorry to hear that you had a poor experience with your VW. I had a 2001 Golf TDI that I drove for 40,000 trouble free miles. Not one issue. My mother inlaw now continues to love it. As for my current VW, 7,000 trouble free miles so far and going strong.

As for country of origin, it depends on the model. When I purchased my previous Golf TDI, I was torn between the performance of the 1.8T and the economy of the TDI. Both models that I looked at were in fact constructed in Germany. (You can tell by the VIN#) I have now decided to heck with economy... give me the performance. :D

To me, there is much more to a car than simply the brand and country of origin. There are a number of cars that I considered when it came time to buy the R32. I liked the WRX, I just thought they were ugly and somewhat a little rough around the edges. :)

[manual63]

Shad,
Plus if you change the ride height you also need to have your alignment done.
But with coil overs, you can change the ride height with a wrench. So would that mean getting an alignment every time I adjust the height? That would not make sense.

[noise_is_life]

OK, I posted this once, but the morc web host decided not to take it...

Anyway, I wish I had a fun car to drive, after all of our vehicle turnover last year we ended up with a (free) '88 Cutlass Calais with a Quad 4 and "performance" suspension.

It is definitely not cool (in my book anyway), but it is pretty fun to drive, ok acceleration and not horrible cornering. In my little fantasy world I always wonder if it would be possible to upgrade it to make it more fun.

Although I know Sean dropped at least $3K on his exhaust upgrade and the whole car is worth less than that, even though it has low mileage and is in great shape.

What do you think, I'm I a kook?

[manual63]

Sorry to hear that you had a poor experience with your VW.
I am not one to expect everything to be perfect. So, I was fine with the few flaws as long as VW could fix them with little hassle for me. Then the Customer Service issues comes up. Not only did they treat me like crap, they made my car worse every time I took it there. Once, they left some trimming on the rear window interior hanging down. I was driving away from the lot and looked in the rear view and it was hanging down....obvious as can be. Another time, they put some trimming back on around the seat belt, which kept it from sliding forward on the rail it is mounted to. Another time, they took apart my whole dash when I compained the door was creaking. The dash has rattled and made horrible noises ever since, and I had them try to find the rattle, sounds like a screw floating around, about 3 time, each time making my car creek and rattle more. I could go on and on and on.....

I then had a Regional VW rep come and take a ride in my car with me. You know what he said? "What noise??" Then he later said, "oh, these noises are perfectly normal....all cars make these noises?"

That was before both my windows fell into the doors.....each twice now....after being fixed by VW. That was before I was stranded in the Black Hills for 4 days because my engine coil went out.......oh, and they didn't pay all my 4 day expenses like the little paper I had told me they would.

Enough.......VW sucks...........bottom line.....no one should ever treat a customer that way and they should have taken my car back and given me a new one, like one of yours that doesn't have any issues and was made in Germany........nope, instead they lost a customer.

[tedsti]

Where, oh where, do I start. 5 02 sensors, 4 MAF sensors, AC stopped working (leaked like a sieve) at 28k, burned 1qt oil/1000 miles, brake light module went out causing all brake and tail lights not to work, 3 remotes, stranded twice due to MAF going while waiting for 02 to get in, O2 and MAF sensors constantly on back order. Yup, a nightmare indeed. I almost came to blows with the dealer on multiple occasions. You know you are doing well when customers start gathering around the service counter to see if you are going to beat the snot out of the service rep. The worst part is that my wife leased the car, so we couldn't even get rid of it. German engineering my a$$, it is a German engineered POS. 90% of the people I talk to who own(ed) VW/Audi regret the day they bought it. It did drive nice on the off day that everything worked.

I'm sorry, but the german cars were never really known for reliability. The old ones were descent when they cost 2-3 times as much.

I threw a party when we turned that POS in (with a bad MAF).

[tedsti]

Shad,

On the list of upgrades for you car I wouldn't count out a header. I had a 92 Accord with the F22 engine in it. It was a noticable change and I went cheap with a Pacesetter Header. Pretty easy install.


If you are going to put a straight through muffler on, then a header is a must.
exhaust manifold + ricer muffler = loud wet fart sound
header + ricer muffler = sweet, deep exhaust sound

[thebionicman]

But with coil overs, you can change the ride height with a wrench. So would that mean getting an alignment every time I adjust the height? That would not make sense.
Everytime you change the height of the car by adjusting the coilovers you will change the alignment on the car. Just sit on the corner of a car and look at how the camber of the wheel changes. Also look at some of the lowered cars around town, specifically some of the rusted out rice that is lowered. You will notice two things:

Very bouncy, this is do to them not using a performace strut/schock which in turn blows out the shocks giving the bouncy ride.

Second is very bad camber on the font wheels. /__\ This gives great turn in but straight line is bad as well as very excellerated tire wear.

Just a couple of things to think about.

[EmL34]

. /__\
Nice diagram!

[manual63]

What if my alignment looks like this?

|_\

Will I have any tire wear then?

[Trevize1138]

Just a quick note from my weekend in the ND badlands.

My wife and I hiked the Petrified Forest Trail Sunday. That location of the petrified stumps is either accessible via hiking a 12 mile loop from the paved park loop or a shortcut: the dirt roads outside the park, then a jeep trail to a small access point that's only a 3 mile hike from the petrified forest.

We had our '00 Legacy L wagon with us (our only car now) and drove the rutted, steep jeep trail just fine. The car does not have the Outback package, so the clearance isn't as good and the suspension is not "off-road" suspension. But, we still had absolutely no trouble navigating doubletrack with it.

[soupboy]

...about the Rex. There were a few times I thought my driveline was going to be sheared off going over some of the cattle grates and the like. Took a few solid rocks on the undercarriage but with no ill effects.

My mechanic freaked out though when I went in for an oil change - that silty orange dirt was everywhere - did a full steam cleaning.

BTW - the Rex with lo-pro tires escaped w/o harm while a guy in a full-size 4x4 pick up blew out 2 tires on the same road.

Sean

[Trevize1138]

That red dust will freak anybody out! I keep having to remind myself that it is, indeed, just red dust all over my chain and gears after driving the bike on the car rack through those dirt roads, not a horribly-rusted chain! :shocked:

[ryno lite]

Just a quick note from my weekend in the ND badlands.

My wife and I hiked the Petrified Forest Trail Sunday. That location of the petrified stumps is either accessible via hiking a 12 mile loop from the paved park loop or a shortcut: the dirt roads outside the park, then a jeep trail to a small access point that's only a 3 mile hike from the petrified forest.

We had our '00 Legacy L wagon with us (our only car now) and drove the rutted, steep jeep trail just fine. The car does not have the Outback package, so the clearance isn't as good and the suspension is not "off-road" suspension. But, we still had absolutely no trouble navigating doubletrack with it.
Cool trail! I took the shortcut to see it also! Most cars could probably handle it, at least 3 years ago when I drove back there. Those roads tend to change once in awhile.

[noise_is_life]

Did anyone see the "Tuner Transformations" show on Speed where they "stealthified" a WRX STi.

They replaced the hood and trunk with stock Impreza parts, so no scoop or spoiler.

My question is, isn't the spoiler functional on the track (this guy raced his STi) or is it just cosmetic?

[soupboy]

...Bloomington/Acura Subara has a rally driver/partner that has done this.

Really simple actually. Like you mentioned you slap on standard issue Impreza bits and move the intercooler from its top mount location (hence the need for the scoop) to the front cowling - a FMIC - front mount intercooler. I've thought of doing this myself, but it would be even better with a STi version of the wagon.

As for the practical need for the wing it's lessened by the fact that a) as a AWD car the need for rear tire downforce is not as maginified as in a RWD-only application, and b) most enthusiast AWD racers race in Auto-Xs and Rally-Xs where the need for downforce is further lessened by the lack of high speed straightaways.

Sean

[Trevize1138]

That's one of the coolest things, I think, about the turbo Subarus: the hood scoop is functional! Pop open that hood and right below where the scoop is you'll see that big, silver intercooler sitting on top of everything. Of course, this has only recently become the case 100% of the time that if a Subaru has a hood scoop it has an intercooler and tubo kit. The pre '02 Outback Sport had a hood scoop and side vents just like the pre '02 Impreza RS, but that's because they all had the same hood as the European WRX, although none of them were turbo.

When I first got my OBS an auto-crossing frined of mine was urging me to throw a turbo kit on 'er, said the horsepower would be upped to 300. Cripes! What would I ever need with that kind of power? Nevermind that it would end up costing probably around $10K after I had to upgrade suspension, brakes, transmission ... still, talk about a sleeper: some two-toned Outback Impreza pulls up to you, the light turns green and it takes off to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds :shocked: