Trail Conditions in Detail - Theodore Wirth

[thebionicman]

Just wanted to start a thread to match Leb, I know like that could happen. Just got done riding the Kenwood Monday night ride. The trail is in great condition. The rain today has done a great job on smoothing the trail out. Its amazing what mother nature can do for us. This trail is going to hold up really good through the wet seasons. Just hope the Park board realizes it.

[FSSS]

I was out on the trails yesterday. A few puddles on the gravel road in, and a little wet on the singletrack in the AM. Should be great now. The rain has really helped compact the new sections of trail.

[Aaroneous]

There's a big ol' tree down in the little section between the 55 entrance and the tracks. Someone made a little shortcut around it, but it's not nearly as fun... Is that something that can be fixed? Anybody?

[Trevize1138]

That tree must be new since last night! I rode it just before sundown yesterday and the trail was in fine shape. No puddles. A couple of sticky spots just north of 55, but other than that perfect conditions.

Of course, I do remember seeing a new re-route in the section between 55 and the rail road tracks, but it looked MOCA-sanctioned rather than a downed tree.

There's a big ol' tree down in the little section between the 55 entrance and the tracks. Someone made a little shortcut around it, but it's not nearly as fun... Is that something that can be fixed? Anybody?

[bkyatty]

is wirth rideable tonight???

[thebionicman]

There's a big ol' tree down in the little section between the 55 entrance and the tracks. Someone made a little shortcut around it, but it's not nearly as fun... Is that something that can be fixed? Anybody?
That tree isn't going to be moved. It actually came down while we were mining rocks out of the area. That area is going to change down the line anyways. We can't bring in an power equipment anyways so cutting it is out of the question being that it is a big ash.

I wouldn't advise riding tonight, it would probably hold up but let's be nice to the trail.

[bkyatty]

i decided not to go, it did seem pretty wet near that part of town

[quinnsoccer27]

i rode wirth today at 6 00 and it was alright the trail is real sliperay on turns but its ok to ride just be carful going up the hills to lean back and not tare up the trail it will be good enof to ride tomarow for shure but just be carful on the turns i was going to fast a cupple of times and i wiped out cause is so slipery but the new parts are getting much less bumby

[quinnsoccer27]

o and about the tree thing i think id be cool if we made a bridge going from the part were it dips all the way to the tree and then over and all the people who dont want to go on it can go to the right witch is the arlternate route right now

[FSSS]

I hope Rusto doesn't find this thread! :crazy2:

[thebionicman]

Andrew,

I know this is kicking a dead horse and it sounded like you were being carefull out there. Just remember that when you ride the trails wet you put undo wear on the trail as well as causing rutting. I know the new trails should hold up pretty well to the rain. As well as the new trails don't need very long to dry up, they actually ride great when its a little tacky.

I am glad to hear you are enjoying the new trails. :D

[syntaxjunkie]

Eric Lealos and I CANCELLED our ride at Wirth last night because of the rain and met at a flippin' Caribou Coffee to talk about the MORC Annual Party/Meeting (in that order). Damn that latent MORC trail guilt!

That said, it was a very productive meeting. The shindig at Buck is going to be one for the ages. As Nigel Tufnel of Spinal tap once said, "This one goes to 11."

Watch for updates on the web, in you LBS and via the U.S. Postal Service (the actual service, not Lance and the Blue Train). Just don't plan to be anywhere else on Saturday, October 2.

This is a party for MORC members to celebrate everything we've accomplished in the past year and roll out some big plans for the future. If you're not a member, this'll be worth every cent of your $20 membership fee all by itself (and then some).

[quinnsoccer27]

my bad but i did only ride the new stuff due to that problem

[thebionicman]

Just got done out at Theo. I had to see how it held up to the rain. It as dry as it ever has been. You couldn't even tell it rained. The only spot that you could tell that it rained was south of the railroad tracks. The two little mudholes, and there wasn't even standing water in them.

[thebionicman]

There's a big ol' tree down in the little section between the 55 entrance and the tracks. Someone made a little shortcut around it, but it's not nearly as fun... Is that something that can be fixed? Anybody?
Since we aren't going to be working on this section for a little while and I have seen some people re open this section I went out tonight with the bowsaw and cut the tree out. So we have the little g out section back till we come in and do the reroute.

[mtbwanabe]

Since we aren't going to be working on this section for a little while and I have seen some people re open this section I went out tonight with the bowsaw and cut the tree out. So we have the little g out section back till we come in and do the reroute.

I did that section on Wednesday and am now regreting it. I went under that tree (tried) and got beat up bad. Barkburn down my sholder and back and my nose is a little sore:scream: :scream: . I should have slowed down b/c I new there was a tree down but I didn't. I was not for sure what I could or could not do to re-route the trail, so thanks for changing it.

[Trevize1138]

Erik,

Did you ever get rid of that one tree you were sawing away at last night? Looked like your saw had bit off a little more than it could chew when I saw ya. :)

Trail conditions at Theo are excellent, BTW. I love the new rock gardens, too. Very very fun. Got a chance to try out my new light out there last night and that was pretty cool. Ran into some group of riders and rode a bit with them exiting the park. Seems like ridership at Theo's starting to pick up! :banana:

[rusto]

Dohhh! Actually, vee ah verkink on a vewy secwet pr-r-r-ogrom r-r-right zia moment zat vill schneak into ever-r-y thread und do all uff ze proofr-r-r-eading zat zay neet!

Zis post ist brot to jou by www.postproofreader.com

[thebionicman]

Erik,

Did you ever get rid of that one tree you were sawing away at last night? Looked like your saw had bit off a little more than it could chew when I saw ya. That is the one that I got rid of. I ended up cutting it in two spots. I am so glad that tree was a soft wood.

[bkyatty]

Does anybody know if there are plans with the very NE section of TWP. IS it going to be left the same or reconfigured at all. I guess it doesn't matter since it is okay as it is but it was a discussion with a fellow trail rider last week. BTW- the re-routes are awesome.

[thebionicman]

I am assuming that you mean the section that is very twisty and tight. The idea for that area is to keep it with a few changes. We want to keep it as and expert loop.

[bkyatty]

yeah that sounds like the section. the last map on mocatrails.org doesn't have the zones listed. Thanks

[bkyatty]

ANy body been at TWP today? Too wet to ride in the PM??.

[thebionicman]

The trail is in great condition. Just got done with the Monday night ride out of Kenwood. The ground is really dry under the surface. Sunday just after it was done raining we were benchcutting and it was powder dry about 4 inches in.

By the way if we get enough people out there on Wednesday we will be able to open a big section of trail.

[thebionicman]

We just got done with the section we have been working on for a few weeks. We closed two old trails to open this one so you might get a little turned around, believe me its worth it.

[stoneage]

!!!???taht htiw gnorw s'tahW

[thebionicman]

!!!???taht htiw gnorw s'tahW
Nice Bill. I think it took me a minute to read your post.

[SickBoy]

Hey, it was fun doing trail work with you cats last night. I forget how much fun it is just to be out in the woods and enjoy it at less than lung-burning mach 4. Chewing the fat while doing some work is great.

The new trail's fun too. It just needs to get packed in now.

And yeah, I heard those "Hey, gain some weight" comments as I rode away.... ;)

[FSSS]

On my way out after trailwork today, I stopped and picked up the bag of trash down by the old office chair. The trash was at a spot where an old, closed trail was located, but... it looked as though some of the "local wildlife" had re-opened the trail. All the branches had been pushed to one side of the old trail.

While I was collecting the trash and putting the branches back, I saw 2 different people (swimmers?) using the old trail. One of the guys was in his 60's and wearing either just a thong, or possibly... just a fanny pack!!

I am assuming the "re-opening" of trails will be an ongoing problem at Wirth?

BTW the trails were awesome!! :banana:

[bkyatty]

by the old office chair. :

Is that going to be a landmark for the trails? What should the official name of it be?

[noise_is_life]

There is a log down in Zone 6a, it is on the trail that runs south along the lake after the steep downhill entry.

Zone Map:

http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Work%20Zones/New%20Zone%20Map.jpg

[thebionicman]

Just got done with a night ride out there with Stoneage. Things are in great condition, a little tacky but the rain didn't do anything to the trail. No soft spots and no mud spots (well at least not on the new trails). We only rode on the new stuff so I didn't come accross the trees down. I will try to get in on Saturday and get those out of there.

[homebrewbiker]

Rode the trail on Saturday. Saw someone flying towards me and got out of the way, turned out to be Jitter Jeep:) Anyway the formerly scary looking log is now very ridable, in Zone 4, just be ready for a quick turn as you come off of it.

I ran into quite a few riders, the trail is definitely getting more use now, this was Saturday between about 6:30 and 7:30 pm.

Maybe I was not in the right place, but it seems like some of the smaller logs were not there (the ones preceding the semi big log "pyramid" that Bill built on a Sunday a few months back.

[Aaroneous]

I want to go out tonite after work (if it doesn't rain) and was wondering about the condition, since it's been so soggy lately... Trail work guys? Anything to watch out for?

[noise_is_life]

It's perfect, we did a couple of laps after trailwork last night.

Theo sheds the water really well and it was pretty hot and windy all day yesterday.

[Aaroneous]

Sweet!

I feel like a dink for riding it all the time without helping out with the trail work, but my band rehearses Wednesday nite - and I just can't get up in the morning on a Sunday...:zzz: I have more excuses if you wanna hear them...

Anyway - Huge props to the trail workers that have been out there lately! She's looking just gorgeous! Love the new rock gardens!!:)

[homebrewbiker]

Sweet!

I feel like a dink for riding it all the time without helping out with the trail work, but my band rehearses Wednesday nite - and I just can't get up in the morning on a Sunday...:zzz: I have more excuses if you wanna hear them...

Anyway - Huge props to the trail workers that have been out there lately! She's looking just gorgeous! Love the new rock gardens!!:)I don't exactly enjoy getting up early on Sunday either. If you ride there you owe at least one trail session.

[FSSS]

10:30 EARLY????? Come on!!!

Maybe it's just the fact that I have to be at work at 7:00 AM every weekday, but 10:30 ain't early.

[FSSS]

10:30 EARLY????? Come on!!!

Maybe it's just the fact that I have to be at work at 7:00 AM every weekday, but 10:30 ain't early.
Just givin' ya crap Aaron... glad you joined us. Built some sweet trail on Sunday. Could have done without the latex "trail treasure" though! :crazy2:

Anyone been out lately??

[thebionicman]

I rode tonight on the Monday night ride. Things were in perfect condition. I can't wait to get back to south of the railroad tracks to get around those mudwholes. We have some great dirt out there, a little rain and its like pavement.

Aaron, now that I have put two and two together, thanks for putting the effort in to get up "early" on Sunday morning and coming out and working.

Isn't great have a great trail that you can ride to...

[Aaroneous]

Ahh... finally... I can now ride Wirth with a clear conscience! As I mentioned on a different thread - if the bach party doesn't kill me (we're doin' paintball too), I'll be there on my SS this Sunday...

[FSSS]

Rode Wirth tonight. Very dry. A few of the new benchcuts and turns are a bit soft on the edges, but the new features and sections of trail make up for any of that!

[quinnsoccer27]

did all you morc guys distory the jumps at wirth? if so why, if not who did!

[thebionicman]

We didn't take out any of the jumps. I am assuming that you are talking about the row of three dirt jumps. There has been talk about those, but we haven't done anything with them. I would guess its the park, they take them down every year. If someone wants to build dirt jumps out there they are going to have to go through the proper channels. We are hoping to integrate some jumps into the trails pending approval from the Park Board.

[FSSS]

Andrew, I highly doubt MORC or MOCA did it. I'd guess the city removed them.

As to the 'why' part of your question... the City of Mpls owns the land and is ultimately responsible for maintenance (including removing illegal jumps).

It is much cheaper for the city to destroy illegal jumps than pay off a lawsuit if someone gets injured and sues.

[FSSS]

Looks like Erik beat me to it... answered your question while I was typing mine!

And with a better answer!!!

[thebionicman]

Sorry to beat you to the reply Pete, I guess I am just fast.

Andrew, if you want to have more jumps out there I suggest that you come out and help us build the trail, that is how cool things get integrated into the trail, such as the new concrete ride.

[thebionicman]

The trail is in great condition, maybe a little bit to dry. The new section has another cool new feature in it, a nice berm after the curb ride. We had a couple of freeride guys out helping us with it, thank you.

[Wheels]

Just wanted to let everyone know that we've finally received approval from the city to use mechanized trail building equipment (Dingo)!

Pete will be going to MORC in search of money next week - and if approved we will have the Dingo's out for a blitz build weekend at the end of the month.

Please come out and give us a hand for the rest of the season - we need to get all of the brush cleared for the Dingo's - then we need to do the hand work once they pass through.

Thanks to all the people that showed up today - things are really moving, and we're making some really fun stuff.

Also - the trails are really dry, so use a light touch on those brakes. And as Erik said - the city knocked the jumps down - but please, don't rebuild - you'll just create more work for us - as we had to promise to do something about them as part of our agreement (shame on me for building them in the first place).

[quinnsoccer27]

so your saying if i come to trail work, i can build some jumps

[Wheels]

so your saying if i come to trail work, i can build some jumps

Maybe... baby steps my friend.

We can build stunts that are incorportated into the trail, when they fall within IMBA standards. That excludes spines and such, so if you've been to Lebenon Hills - you've seen IMBA approved stunts.

But the only way to have influence over what gets built is to be there with a shovel in your hand, so we'd love to have you. A couple of freeride guys came out today - and with their help and knowledge, we now have a nice berm and a concrete elevated stunt.

As a longtime BMX'r and Downhiller I'm the last person who wants to see a spine jump lost - but this isn't the place to build them, at least not yet. We need to prove our worth out there and show that these things can be built properly - and that we're not just a bunch of Mountain Dewds.

With the right approach there's a good chance we can build a stunt park/BMX park in the city in the future. But we have a lot of goodwill to build, and some dues need to be paid for past misdeads.

As I said earlier, I naively built those spines many years ago - so I'm out there trying to do the right thing - and make something that's fun and that will last.

I hope you'll join us.

[noise_is_life]

Just wanted to let everyone know that we've finally received approval from the city to use mechanized trail building equipment (Dingo)!
Wow! That rocks, better late that never.

Unfortunately I can't make the blitz build (I'm out of town that weekend for the first of a string of baby showers), but I'll do my best to help get ready for it.

[Aaroneous]

When's this "blitz" weekend gonna be? 23rd-24th or 30th-31st? Is it gonna be multiple days of work? I wanna help!

[thebionicman]

As it stands right now its going to be the weekend of the 30-31. This coming weekend there won't be any trailwork do to the fact that everyone is going to be at Afton for the Trail School. So we will put a weekend inbetween the trail school and the blitz build.

[FSSS]

You might find this funny...

John and I were trying to smooth out the connector trail through 6b (I think the b is for bumpy) during trailwork yesterday. It was rock solid by the way, and will need to be finished after some rain loosens it up again.

I was walking back to my bike to get some water, and a young couple was walking up the trail with a baby and a stroller. The mom, who was up front, saw me with my pulaski, turned to her husband and said, "He's got an axe!" They both quickly turned around and walked back down the trail - fast enough where I couldn't follow them without it looking like I was chasing them.

I was gonna to be the friendly MORC/MOCA trailworker and help portray a positive image. Instead they thought I was an axe murderer! :crazy2:

I have a few co-worker friends that live in Golden Valley - it's kinda funny to hear about Wirth Park's reputation from the surrounding 'hood.

[Wheels]

You might find this funny...

John and I were trying to smooth out the connector trail through 6b (I think the b is for bumpy) during trailwork yesterday. It was rock solid by the way, and will need to be finished after some rain loosens it up again.

I was walking back to my bike to get some water, and a young couple was walking up the trail with a baby and a stroller. The mom, who was up front, saw me with my pulaski, turned to her husband and said, "He's got an axe!" They both quickly turned around and walked back down the trail - fast enough where I couldn't follow them without it looking like I was chasing them.

I was gonna to be the friendly MORC/MOCA trailworker and help portray a positive image. Instead they thought I was an axe murderer! :crazy2:

I have a few co-worker friends that live in Golden Valley - it's kinda funny to hear about Wirth Park's reputation from the surrounding 'hood.

That's too funny...like they walked into some bad horror film.

[flombe]

Great story! I live in Golden Valley and have ridden Theo many many times in the past few years and I can attest to Theo's "reputation". Let's say if one of the members of the user group that has helped to build this reputation were to walk out of the woods with his axe in his hand - well, the young couple would be running for entirely different reasons.

I have passed many people on the trail, some clothed, all totally harmless. I have heard/read some opinion that the prescence of more riders at Theo appears to be reducing the popularity of the park with the aforementioned unsanctioned user group.

My experience is that I have seen fewer naked dudes this year than in the past, although I did see a naked chick this year and I gotta consider that a bonus! No, really a park is someplace you should be able to confidently take your kids and I would rather not unknowingly expose (obvious pun) them to the concept of public nudity.

All in all, this crowd is looking for a little privacy. If they are repeatedly interrupted by riders (finally a sanctioned user group!), I assume they will move on to quieter, more secluded areas of the park/city.

[noise_is_life]

"He's got an axe!"
:laugh: That's fricken' funny, can't stop laughing...

[Wheels]

"Oh look, he has a sword" - is more the norm out there.

Just got back from a ride - and the trails are pretty darn good, but dry.

I ran my tire pressure a bit lower tonight and stuck alot better - skidded less - so you may try that to get through the corners a bit quicker without doing any damage. I'm on tubeless - so those of you using tubes may want to make sure you have a spare - and unwieght a bit more over rocks and roots.

That got me thinking - it's that time of year when your skills are pretty-well honed. So why not try something a bit different to push yourself. I locked-out my rear suspension and found that I needed to adjust my riding style a bit. Maybe grab your single, or if you've been beating yourself up on the single all season - grab your geared bike.

I didn't see any sword holders or axe murders tonight...

[thebionicman]

Nice FSSS, chasing people away.


I rode tonight as well, The return of The Bionic Man. I ran my tubeless a little lower too, didn't have any problems with skidding. I did see a few spots where people were skidding, one spot is going to have to have some rocks to slow people down before a quick corner in Zone 4.

[flombe]

I gotta ask. Only curious. What pressure for the tubeless? I have been running Hutchinson Python Tubeless Lights around 30-32#'s and they stick. A few times sub-30 but I hear that weird noise when the sidewall sounds like it is collapsing. Personally, I run 170#'s in my socks and ride a hardtail if that helps you gauge where things are at.

[thebionicman]

We run just about the same setup. I am about 180 pounds, run a steel hardtail. I have a Hutch Scorpion on the front and a Hutch Python on the rear. Normally I run 40# up front and 35# in the back, tonight I ran 35# up front and 30# in the rear. I think its a great setup for Theo or Leb.

[Wheels]

I run Hutchinsons as well (what else is there) the Scorpions, which are a bit bigger at 2.1 - but they run fatter like 2.2's. I'm 155# and I usually run 30# front and 28# rear - but tonite I ran the back around 25# and the front under 30#.

I ran the Pythons for racing - but they don't stick so well for agressive riding, and they flatted all to hell on me at Moab. The Scorpion's are a bit wider and don't roll as smooth - but they stick like crazy and let me pump out of turns with out sliding out.

I like the sliding/rubbing sound. Kind'a let's me know how much I'm drifting by just listening. Feels pretty cool too.

[stoneage]

Great story! I live in Golden Valley and have ridden Theo many many times in the past few years and I can attest to Theo's "reputation". Let's say if one of the members of the user group that has helped to build this reputation were to walk out of the woods with his axe in his hand - well, the young couple would be running for entirely different reasons.

I have passed many people on the trail, some clothed, all totally harmless. I have heard/read some opinion that the prescence of more riders at Theo appears to be reducing the popularity of the park with the aforementioned unsanctioned user group.

My experience is that I have seen fewer naked dudes this year than in the past, although I did see a naked chick this year and I gotta consider that a bonus! No, really a park is someplace you should be able to confidently take your kids and I would rather not unknowingly expose (obvious pun) them to the concept of public nudity.

All in all, this crowd is looking for a little privacy. If they are repeatedly interrupted by riders (finally a sanctioned user group!), I assume they will move on to quieter, more secluded areas of the park/city.

They already have. The public sex crowd has diminished considerably at Wirth and has relocated to the area between Glenwood and 394, west of Theo Wirth Pky. It is our civic duty to keep building trail till they wind up in Lakeville.
Enforcement has been stepped up, also, due to the housing that has sprung up in Golden Valley to the north of the park. It is a $600 ticket one of the residents said. By the way, I have heard that one of the owners of the high buck homes being built across from Bare Ass Beach is none other than king of the asses himself, Tom Barnard. Now how do we get rid of him? :confused:

[FSSS]

How is the berm holding up now that it's getting ridden??

[Wheels]

How is the berm holding up now that it's getting ridden??

I should have stopped to look - but I was having too much fun. I felt really solid.

[thebionicman]

The berm was in great condition, so smooth.

[flombe]

We run just about the same setup. I am about 180 pounds, run a steel hardtail. I have a Hutch Scorpion on the front and a Hutch Python on the rear. Normally I run 40# up front and 35# in the back, tonight I ran 35# up front and 30# in the rear. I think its a great setup for Theo or Leb.
Thanks for the info! I think I'll run my pressure a little lower and try it out.

[flombe]

I run Hutchinsons as well (what else is there) the Scorpions, which are a bit bigger at 2.1 - but they run fatter like 2.2's. I'm 155# and I usually run 30# front and 28# rear - but tonite I ran the back around 25# and the front under 30#.

I ran the Pythons for racing - but they don't stick so well for agressive riding, and they flatted all to hell on me at Moab. The Scorpion's are a bit wider and don't roll as smooth - but they stick like crazy and let me pump out of turns with out sliding out.

I like the sliding/rubbing sound. Kind'a let's me know how much I'm drifting by just listening. Feels pretty cool too.
I was considering the Scorpions, but opted to be a weight-weenie and try the Python Tubeless Lights (not the Airlights) for the Fat 40 as I was looking for anything to make up for not riding enough! I see and feel no difference except for the reduced weight. I can see how the Scorpions would offer a bigger bite.

[syntaxjunkie]

I've found the Python to be the perfect tire for riding at Wirth. In fact, for just about all of the trails in the Metro area, especially when they're dry.

Maybe it's just the extra 25-50 pounds I have on you fellas (205), but I usually run them at about 35 lbs. each. They will slither a little on you if you take too much speed (or lean too hard) into a corner, but that was only an issue at the old-school Leb exit (i.e., bobsled track) for me.

I haven't tried the Scorpions for some reason, but I think that'll have to be in the off-season budget. Should've known to just stick with the Hutch...

[FSSS]

This coming weekend there won't be any trailwork do to the fact that everyone is going to be at Afton for the Trail School.Really??

Sunday (10/17) trailwork is posted on the MORC "Upcoming Events" and on the calendar.

Are all the Wirth dirt bosses/stewards gonna be at the Trail School??

It would be nice to get people out there, even if many of the regulars will be at Afton.

[noise_is_life]

Really??

Sunday (10/17) trailwork is posted on the MORC "Upcoming Events" and on the calendar.

Are all the Wirth dirt bosses/stewards gonna be at the Trail School??

It would be nice to get people out there, even if many of the regulars will be at Afton.
That's just because I put every Wednesday and Sunday on the calendar before any details like IMBA trail school came up.

[Wheels]

Really??

Sunday (10/17) trailwork is posted on the MORC "Upcoming Events" and on the calendar.

Are all the Wirth dirt bosses/stewards gonna be at the Trail School??

It would be nice to get people out there, even if many of the regulars will be at Afton.

Only thing is - the person leading the crew must be IMBA certified as per our MOA with the city (insurance reasons). So if we have a free trail boss - we can run a crew.

[FSSS]

Cool... just wanted to make sure people don't go out there lookin' for trailwork on Sunday if it isn't happening.

Thanks.

[noise_is_life]

Cool... just wanted to make sure people don't go out there lookin' for trailwork on Sunday if it isn't happening.

Thanks.
I took it off the calendar and I will make sure to send out an anti-notice.

[Dominican boy]

i just went riding on monday. Crashed bad with a tree cause an ant got on my way. The trails, the new beam and concrete bridge is awesome. good job u guys

[flombe]

I agree with Gregorio Antonio Ramirez Alvarado (""), the new section with the drops, beam and berm is fantastic!

I also have to say I think I have seen more riders at Theo on cold dark fall nights than I did at any time all summer. This is great! Not too many though.

[homebrewbiker]

i just went riding on monday. Crashed bad with a tree cause an ant got on my way. The trails, the new beam and concrete bridge is awesome. good job u guys
If you like what we are doing you should come out and help! We still have a lot to finish up before the end of the season. That is Wed at 5 pm and Sunday at 12:30. There will be a schedule change soon, Wed work will go away at the time change. There will also be an upcoming weekend session. Come out. It's fun. Really.:banana:

There will be trailwork, however this Sunday, Oct 17th as far as I know.

[noise_is_life]

If you like what we are doing you should come out and help! We still have a lot to finish up before the end of the season. That is Wed at 5 pm and Sunday at 12:30. There will be a schedule change soon, Wed work will go away at the time change. There will also be an upcoming weekend session. Come out. It's fun. Really.:banana:

There will be trailwork, however this Sunday, Oct 17th as far as I know.
Actually there is no trailwork this weekend, many of the trail crew will be at IMBA Trail School. If anyone needs their fix though they could go help the City of Lakes Loppet trail crew. It would be a great way to show solidarity between MTB and X-Country Ski communities.

See http://mocatrails.org for details.

[homebrewbiker]

Actually there is no trailwork this weekend, many of the trail crew will be at IMBA Trail School. If anyone needs their fix though they could go help the City of Lakes Loppet trail crew. It would be a great way to show solidarity between MTB and X-Country Ski communities.

See http://mocatrails.org (http://mocatrails.org/) for details.
Oops, that's what I meant to Say. Disconnect between the keyboard and brain.:D

[flombe]

A few thoughts from this weekend:

I rode Lebanon on Saturday. WOW! What a blast! Still grinnin'.

I rode Theo Wirth on Sunday. WOW again! This trail is really shaping up and a joy to ride! At the time I was there, the newest section was beginning to muck up in places.

Last weekend my family and I hiked the Quaking Bog and Eloise Butler Garden trails at Theo Wirth and I saw a few knobby tracks on the bog side of the parkway. Piss me off!!! This Saturday, as I was driving on Glenwood Avenue, I saw a rider cross Glenwood and head into the trail on the south side of the rode that leads toward the Quaking Bog part of Theo Wirth. This trail is clearly posted NO BIKES! I laid on the horn and hopefully this wanker at least thought about what he was doing. The actions of this guy and others like him could jeopardize the hard work that MOCA and MORC have been doing to build a city sanctioned trail system in Minneapolis - starting with the pilot program trails at Theo Wirth. At a minimum, the process could be slowed by continued trail poaching.

I have talked with several riders over the past few months and some have admitted to riding the posted trails at Theo. I let them know that the trails are closed to bikes and that they should stay out of those areas although I know some already knew this.

Spread the word to the ignorant fools that they need to STAY OFF of posted trails!

[Wheels]

A few thoughts from this weekend:

I rode Lebanon on Saturday. WOW! What a blast! Still grinnin'.

I rode Theo Wirth on Sunday. WOW again! This trail is really shaping up and a joy to ride! At the time I was there, the newest section was beginning to muck up in places.

Last weekend my family and I hiked the Quaking Bog and Eloise Butler Garden trails at Theo Wirth and I saw a few knobby tracks on the bog side of the parkway. Piss me off!!! This Saturday, as I was driving on Glenwood Avenue, I saw a rider cross Glenwood and head into the trail on the south side of the rode that leads toward the Quaking Bog part of Theo Wirth. This trail is clearly posted NO BIKES! I laid on the horn and hopefully this wanker at least thought about what he was doing. The actions of this guy and others like him could jeopardize the hard work that MOCA and MORC have been doing to build a city sanctioned trail system in Minneapolis - starting with the pilot program trails at Theo Wirth. At a minimum, the process could be slowed by continued trail poaching.

I have talked with several riders over the past few months and some have admitted to riding the posted trails at Theo. I let them know that the trails are closed to bikes and that they should stay out of those areas although I know some already knew this.

Spread the word to the ignorant fools that they need to STAY OFF of posted trails!

This is one of out biggest challenges right now. When we made our Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with the city we were required to make efforts to police this kind of illegal riding, but it's really hard to do.

The best thing we can do is, as Eric said - educate our fellow riders, and politely inform anyone we see riding these areas as to our current situation.

If you are riding these areas, please stop.

[nigel]

A lil wet out today.....avoid the section with the cement skinny and the "insloped turn" the clay is VERY wet and slippy (and i was only walking)

D

[quinnsoccer27]

did you guys distroy the build up ladder in the old part of wirth too

[thebionicman]

We haven't destroyed any of the jumps or ladders out there. The city has been out trying to get those thing out of there. We want to put in stunts, but its going to take time to get things like that approved by the city.

Plus anything elevated over 36 inches requires an engineer to approve it. You are welcome to come out and help, we would appreciate your input.

Erik

[Wheels]

did you guys distroy the build up ladder in the old part of wirth too

Yup, the city is watching closer than ever. It's more important now than ever that any unauthorized building stops!

Someone raked open a trail on the north end of the Cedar corridor - bad news. There are a couple of reasons why this is a bad place for a trail, least of which is that the area was at one time a garbage dump - and is littered with glass. No biker in their right mind should even be riding in there - much less building trail in there. Besides inviting flat tires a-plenty, we will now have to spend the time to close it before someone in the Cedar Lake Community group realizes it has been done - and blames us for doing it.

If we want to have any chance of getting legit trails in the Cedar area, we have to do everything we can to prove that bikers are able to coexist and within proper channels.

Please stop - you're only reducing the chances of these areas remaining available in the long run.

[Trevize1138]

On a more positive note:

Rode Theo both on Wednesday night and yesterday afternoon. There are a couple of soupy spots after the new berm in section 4 and lots of leaves on most sections, but all things considered the conditions are quite good!

I love the new section, too. The concrete skinny isn't terribly skinny, but the drop on the other side is a fun one to drop your rear wheel down on. The big dip just before that only gets more fun with experience. I also absolutely love the berm! It's perfect; way better than Lebanon's tight, short berms. You can really move around this one!

It's also nice that the trail now has a lot more cohesion. You feel like you can actually do real loops around Theo now, not just sorta follow the disjointed trails for a while and then improvise an exit.

[thebionicman]

Rode Theo both on Wednesday night and yesterday afternoon.
Jeez Chris you could of showed up a little earlier both days and helped us work on the trail. :eyeroll:

[Trevize1138]

Jeez Chris you could of showed up a little earlier both days and helped us work on the trail. :eyeroll:


I wast *totally* gonna, too! But, I couldn't because I was watching TV ...

[flombe]

I rode a couple of helmet lighted laps at Theo tonight and the trail surface is overall in great shape! Most of it is leaf covered, of course. This made for a couple of near unitentional forays into the underbrush. I am amazed how well the leaves hold in the corners.

In the newest section (section 5), there are a few soft corners that suck you off the trail if you swing a little wide - one is the second hard right, one is right before the drop into the gully, one is the left after the skinny. It seems they need to be firmed up somehow. Maybe it is just me. Otherwise the areas that were holding water a couple of weeks ago were firm tonight in spite of recent rain. The concrete skinny is solid and the landing is perfection. Nice work whoever built that thing!

I saw 5 other riders just before dark. One deer. No racoons.

I have arranged to be out on Saturday morning for the Blitz Build! Maybe now I can shed some of the guilt I have been carrying and should be able to ride a little faster!

[thebionicman]

Those two corners that you mentioned in Zone 5 are going to have the tread moved down so people don't ride off. They are a little bit to tight of turns. Work was done at the end of last week to help the soft areas, put some knicks in and debermed the lower edge.

I look forward to seeing you out there Saturday.

[flombe]

I need to ride real bad. This weather is killin' me!

I have not been over to check conditions. Anyone?

Does anyone plan to ride Theo tonight?

[flombe]

I did a little recon ride/walk at Theo tonight. This is what I found.

Sections 1, 2, and 4 completed earlier this summer are in decent condition with some soft spots.

Section 6B is very muddy and should be avoided.

Section 5 is extremely soft and muddy in several areas after the berm and should not be ridden at all as it would be difficult to even walk it. There are many tire ruts from riders who apparently didn't know the damage they were causing.

Section 3A is a swamp in the ususal places. I would not bother trying to ride it.

Quick link to the section map >>>
http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Work%20Zones/New%20Zone%20Map.jpg

Wildlife report: one MASSIVE buck with a minimum 12 point rack. One doe.

[Dominican boy]

They should put some trees or branches to close the damaged sections until they dry out a little bit more. Will and I rode yesterday and avoided these areas, though we saw heavy braking skid marks on the trails.:cool:

[thebionicman]

We can't keep people from riding or walking on the trails that close let alone trying to put up something temporary to keep them from riding.

It is just a matter of common sense, if its muddy you don't ride it. The main problem with Zones 5 and 6b is that there is a lot of clay in the soil. After the tread had been ridden on for a year we shouldn't have these major problems with the mud.

If come next year we still have some major problems with those areas we will have to address it then. For now, just ride smart.

[flombe]

I rode last night and the trail is in great shape. Nice and grippy. One or two soft spots, no mud.

The section 5 areas that were ripped up after the rain seem fine now. I assume someone made repairs. Thanks!

The TrailSource machines made some headway on section 3A too.

I saw two riders on their way out before dark and one doe, a deer, a female deer.

[Trevize1138]

I rode there last night, too! The leaves are really the only problem now, but they're not too bad. The trail is, indeed, in nice shape.

[Wheels]

I'm just so damn happy to make the latest trail report...

Erik says the trails are prime, even zone 5 has firmed-up, sounds like there is some heavy leaf coverage - we may get a chance to clear them before spring, in the meantime - just enjoy the slippery feel. Should keep you on your toes.

Now the big news - the entry/exit to zone 3 is pretty much done - and you're going to freak! IMBA has recently added a new category of turns to the official definition, the in-sloped turn - so we've put it to good use. Some of you may have seen the first one we built at the end of zone 5, but wait until you see what we've done with the entrance at Hwy. 55. We've built three more, but these are on a hillside - so they're downhill berms (we say in-slope to keep us pc, please do the same).

Enjoy. There's another one on the way on the north end of zone 3.

As you're riding zone three - it's a two-way sperated trail. The designed direction is to enter at 55 on the south end or next to the chipping green on the parkway on the north end.

The east trail is southbound (included downhill at 55) and the west trail goes northbound. Hang a left to go north at 55, you'll exit after the downhill on the east trail.

We'll loose the crossings on the south end - as we can't cross the tracks, we have to cross the bridge and enter through the Wirth Pkwy. gate. We're also eliminating the trail on the south side of the ravine and through the ravine - please close these if you see them reopened. I know they we're fun, but they've stayed wet all season some wetter years, so they have to go. Sorry.


I'll bet that's confusing, but how else could I describe it... hope you got it.

[FSSS]

We're also eliminating the trail on the south side of the ravine and through the ravine - please close these if you see them reopened. I know they we're fun, but they've stayed wet all season some wetter years, so they have to go. Sorry.

Is that the section with the steep, short downhills, the jumps, and the log pile?

[thebionicman]

I don't know if you are thinking of the same area. Its where it goes back and forth through the ravine. Tomorrow I can show you how the reroutes go. Basically we will be dumping the trail onto the paved trail, not crossing the railroad track. Going across the railroad tracks is trespassing, we want to keep everyone happy.

[Wheels]

We kept a couple and lost a couple.

But we may be able to preserve some of the logwork. We will loose the big downhill. It had to go, sorry...that thing was fun.

[Wheels]

I had a thought as I was writing the last post. I want to discuss the effort that has gone into designing these trails - and as a result, the making of decisions that have effected the entire trail system as we knew it before we went legit.

I know there have been rumblings from many directions about changes - but I know for the most part everyone views it as positive change. Still we all hate to loose our favorite trail, or that corner you've rode a 20 times before you mastered it.

I've been riding, building and maintaining trails in the system since 1990 - as have many other stealth builders. There's no need to mention their names - they can step up if they like (we've been given amnesty anyway). But as our former Trail Steward once said - "the people who decide are the one's that show up". I thought it a pretentious statement at the time - but as I've gone through this process, I realize it's the fact (fair and balanced, right Baba?).

Anyway, Bill and I had been working on the trail design for two years before we ever got a chance to place a pin flag or even trim a branch. We actually got caught setting pin flags early on - luckily the city was forgiving, but it didn't help our trust rating much.

When we formed the trail committee last spring - it was just Bill and myself. Bill was the only person with IMBA training - so he became the Steward and I took on the design duties, working with Tim Wegner. The amount of time we've spent just designing this system could probably hold it's own against our total building manhours.

In designing this system, I've tried my best to preserve as much of the old system as possible. Most recently, I convinced the Parks Dept. that keeping the short dowhill on the south end of zone 3 with promises of armoring it in the spring. It was one of those sections that many of us have mastered over and over as it's evolved throughout the years - so we found a way to keep it - a small victory.

The point is, we've done our best to preserve the old system and add fun new trail wherever we could. If we've changed something you've built or has become your favorite section - I'm sorry. We've had to make some tough choices, and we've spent huge amounts of time doing so.

Things are going to be different out there, and we need everyone on board to keep things closed and not break though closed trail or fences. This has all been a big test - and if we pass, we get more trail - and more things will change. For the better.

If you're still riled up - come on out and use your angst to swing a tool. We could have used someone today that could build a 3 foot high log obstacle. It's there to be had, but you have to show up to win the race.

[gopherhockey]

The point is, we've done our best to preserve the old system and add fun new trail wherever we could. If we've changed something you've built or has become your favorite section - I'm sorry. We've had to make some tough choices, and we've spent huge amounts of time doing so.
Great post, and great job on the trail you guys!

Changing an old trail often comes with complaints. We had em' and still get them at Lebanon. There are a certain set of riders that I think will never be happy. I think for the most part they complain just to complain, although it is certainly valid for any rider to have liked the way a trail was.

Not everyone knows proper trail building techniques. Not everyone realizes all the work that goes into these trails. Not everyone "buys" the MORC/MOCA vision for trails in Minnesota. Some will even be selfish to the point of never caring. Oh well. This used to bother me.. but it doesn't as much anymore. Seeing all the great volunteers out on our trails and watching ever growing numbers of bikers means we are doing something right.

Keep up the good work!

Oh, and its always funny - some of the most notorious complainers are the same ones you will see out there riding time and time again. Hmmmm.. ;)

[FSSS]

Most recently, I convinced the Parks Dept. that keeping the short dowhill on the south end of zone 3 with promises of armoring it in the spring.
Sweet... I just rode zone 3 for the first time today. A lot of fun, but a lot of sustainability issues with the old trail.

I was kinda curious what was going to stay and what had to go.

[redwood]

I'd like to throw in my unsolicited 2 cents on the new trail designs at Theo Wirth.

I understand all of the reasons why the new trails are so radically different from the ones they've replaced. There are standards of sustainability, the need to conform to the park system's desires and the need to earn their trust, the need to make a trail accessible to all levels of riders, the need to proove the efficacy of MOCA, etc. I understand those issues and I respect the compromises that must be incorporated into building this new "official" trail system. I also have volunteered hundreds of hours of trail work in minnesota and other parts of the country, and I do recognize and commend all the physical and organizational effort that has gone into the new trails.


That said, I have gone from riding theo wirth 3 or 4 times a week to rarely at all. I simply don't enjoy the new trails enough. At first I enjoyed the seeing the new trail unfold and was curious to see the week's progress. But that novelty has worn off, and now I seldom return. In short, the new trail is too curvy for me to get speed thrills or a cardio work out, and too easy and unvaried to capture my interest. There are other places I now enjoy riding more, though unfortunately they aren't right in my neighborhood like theo is.

Reports of the changes to "zone 3" prompted me to speak up. I'm not being bitter, but merely matter of fact, when i say that the exciting ravine in zone 3 was one of the few things that's kept me coming back to Wirth this autumn even after the rest of the trail had been changed. So my heart sinks a bit when i see on this forum that things have been changed in zone 3 as well. (I haven't actually seen that section yet, so I'll withhold judgement.)

I'm anticipating some comments to the effect that I should have shown up to some meetings and made possible the changes I would have wanted. There is some merit to that argument, but realisticly, I don't think I could have made a difference. I'm sure that the MOCA organizers enjoy diverse and challenging trails as much as I do, and I have no doubt that they argued for such a trail system in a voice more eloquent and forceful than my own. Obviously, compromises must be made.

I think the new trail system is a good thing if it allows lots of people in the metro area to mountain bike more easily. And I certainly expect it will have that effect.

But it does put a damper on my riding.

[Wheels]

I understand all of the reasons why the new trails are so radically different from the ones they've replaced. There are standards of sustainability, the need to conform...

No problem, it's good to know what other's are thinking. You could have showed up for all the meetings and all the trail work sessions - and we still would have lost the ravine trails. I think we knew all along that we'd have to close them - but we were in denial right up to the end. They're fun, no doubt. But they're built in a ravine... nuf said.

As far as the trails being too twisty - they are, at least the stuff I've laid out. Well not too twisty, but designed by someone who likes to get their cardio and equilibrium worked at the same time. My logic on the design was to build trail that allowed you to work and ride as hard or as easy as you like - the faster you go, the more challenging they get. That's why many of the bench cuts are designed to act like berms and the pin points allow you to lean without hitting your shoulder (like the old trails).

The other thing I was trying to do - is to create a longer loop. The old loop could be completed in half the time. We may be adding some trail that's more wide open in the future - we have our eyes on the bluffs facing the lake for some long/fast rollercoaster - which will be more like the old trails.

At the same time, you have me (a downhhiller) learning to build trail from a rider who rides completely different than me. But I had to learn the process before I could begin to push the limits (see section 3 for the results).

At the same time, we're getting better at this - it's been a safety first approach - gaining the trust, learning what we can build sustainably, then pushing the limits again.

Hang in there - we're trying to please everyone. Freeriders, singlespeeders, cardio nuts, we have a lot of bases to cover.

Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated.

[Tim Wegner]

Well said Shawn. It has been a lot of fun working on the trails with you this summer. It will be even more fun when we can start on the rest of the trail in 2006.

TW

[oldgrowth]

Hi all,

Forgive me if I make some dumb arguments or step on some toes here, as I'm a relative newcomer to the Twin Cities.

I'm not sure I understand the logic that, since the trails in Zone 3 are "built in a ravine... nuf said." I have been trying to figure this out since I moved to the (mostly flat) midwest. Why is it assumed here that a trail on a slope cannot be sustainable? My own experiences riding in different parts of north america suggest otherwise. Other riders have told me that the ravine trails have existed for quite some time, and let's be honest: they are in fine shape. So is it just a matter of principle not to have trails on steep drainages here? If that is an official policy, I can respect that. But then I can't help thinking of the Levis-Trow Mound trail system in WI. It is built mostly on steep slopes with much sandier soil (and many more loose rocks, etc) than what we find in Minneapolis. Notably, not only has Levis-Trow existed 'sustainably' for many years, but it has even been named one of IMBA's Epic Rides.

This brings me to a second point. To be Epic in any sense of the word, a trail has to be fun. That means that either (a) it should feature entertaining terrain that can be ridden at high speed (as at Levis-Trow) , or (b) it should feature challenging stunts that must be ridden at low speed (Eagle Ridge, say). A low-speed trail on mostly flat ground without significant stunts is, frankly, not much fun. I know that sounds basic, but I think we should keep it in mind. I don't mean to offend those who have contributed significantly more time and effort than I have to creating the new trails at Theo. Their work is appreciated. But part of me thinks that the new stuff offers the worst of all possible combinations, pleasing neither freeriders nor cardio nuts. Flat, agonizingly slow, essentially stuntless. In my opinion, a fun trail offers either a fast cardio workout, or interesting equilibrium/strength challenges, but not both at the same time. You can't make one trail appeal to everyone and every kind of biking. If you try to please too many user groups at once, the trail becomes about as useful and exciting as a hybrid bicycle.

I guess that as a newcomer to the cities, I'm just wondering whom the new Wirth trails are meant to appeal to. Are there plans to incorporate many different rider groups in the future of Wirth, or is the trail system meant specifically for one user group (which i think is fine, if it's a stated goal)? Judging only by the compromised character of the new trails themselves (few obstacles, many curves, no speed), the purpose of the Wirth project seems as meandering and directionless as the trails themselves.

[ryno lite]

I can help answer some of the questions, but I'm sure other people will chime in with better answers. The lack of built in stunts and obstacles is the way the city wants them built. Right now the city is pretty tight on what they'll let us do. We've already pushed it as far as the city will let us. At least for now. Ravine trails do not work in most places especially in the rainy Midwest because they are fall line trails. Water takes the quickest route down the hill and erodes the trails as it follow them down the hill, thus we must incorporate different trail building techniques to avoid this. In the case of Levis Trow, the trail usage has a lot to do with how those trails hold up. If Levis Trow had the number of riders a metro area course has, the would be having a ton of erosion problems on their fall line trails. Some areas of Theo might apear to be hanging in there, but there already is an increase of use there and it will increase more, the old trails in the ravine would not hold up. Like Shawn said, these current trails aren't the only style going in, the challenge should go up as the city becomes more comfortable with us. In the end, we should have a fun and varied trail system that hopefully has more mileage than the old renegade trails! Hopefully someone else can pipe in and explain it better than I did!

[gopherhockey]

I don't mean to take this off topic of Theo at all, but its difficult to talk to the Levis Trow trail without knowing what the land manager is ok with out there.

I've ridden the Levis trail a few times, and as a fully IMBA trained individual I can say its not a fully sustainable trail. They have a number of sections that are falling apart - including a very long downhill... which is fun, of course, but probably won't last long. I have even spoken to the IMBA crew that was there duing the Levis trailwork sessions and Epic Ride and they have about the same comments. Its a work in progress, much like many of our trails. If the land manager doesn't mind the long rutted downhill they have there it will probably stay. If their mission is to make Levis more sustainable, it will likely be gone eventually. If nobody does anything nature will make that decision for them over time.

It would be important to note that while we were there we rode that downhill 3 times because it was fun. Yes, sometimes the worst trails are the most fun to ride... I think we might all agree to that. The important thing is that you have to separate that when it comes to working with land managers - especially in a metro surrounding. Just because it works (or isn't being addressed) on one trail doesn't mean it will on another.

As for low speed trails without stunts not being fun - ride Milaca sometime, they have a tight twisty trail that I want to copy someday. Its refreshing to ride something that challenges you without the need for speed or log piles/wood obstacles. Epic really has nothing to do with fast or slow, and if you are speaking IMBA Epic it often has more to do with land manager relations and the local club than the trail itself.

You are correct in some ways about a trail sticking to one type of rider and one type of workout - but often this can actually be accomplished by trails within a trail system, like with a set of stacked loops. It is definitely true that you aren't going to please everyone at one specific trail. I can't speak to the purpose of Theo in particular other than I think they risked losing bike access all together if *something* wasn't done. I like the idea of having a stated purpose for a trail up front though!

Good questions!

[Wheels]

I can't speak to the purpose of Theo in particular other than I think they risked losing bike access all together if *something* wasn't done. I like the idea of having a stated purpose for a trail up front though!

Good discussion.

First off the ravine. It has evolved a bit since it first went in just before the SSWWC in 2000. The builders actually closed part of it because of the very problem we anticipate having - it was being overused, then we had a wet season - and it turned into a mud pit for most of the season. As a result, people forged their own alternates and there was proliferation.

I know it looks good and rides well now, but every couple of years it swamps in turns into a quagmire. With the expected traffic increase with the trails going legit - it would be irresponsible of us to leave it open.

The option was to create elevated boardwalks - which take time, money, and maintenance. Their not as fun to ride as the ravines ups and downs.

So, that brings us to the bigger issue - who is the intended user. Well, initially it has to be anyone and everyone. That is one of our mandates for the system. It's been a process of building trust with the city while learning how to build sustainable trail. Getting the Parks Dept. to approve the work we've done in section 3 is a direct result of this year long effort. I think all will be pleasantly surprised by our recent work, and admit that this is the kind of trail they would like to ride. The days of roots acting as a challenging trail feature is over - we'll have to build these things ourselves.

Section 1 will use a similar approach, and provide more challenging trail.

The current loop is the beginner/intermediate loop. As we move forward you will see two distinct advanced single black diamond sections. The first is the exit to section 3 at Hwy 55, next spring will see this section vastly improved with armoring of the downhill in a series of step downs, and some large obstacles.

Section 6a and 6b (which are on the northeast corner of the park) are a clean canvas with very technical terrain. This area will be a black diamond section as well, but it's going to requires some serious man-hours to do it. In addition, we may get to build another expert section on the bluffs facing the lake.

The design of the current trail and the routing provides for a smooth transition to these planned areas - as well as some expert alternates within the existing loop.

There were some compromises made, and I'm sorry to hear that some think the trail is boring and easy (I guess that's a matter of opinion)- but it takes some serious labor to build trail - and we would have never completed the project in time for the evaluation had the city even trusted us enough early on to make the aggressive moves we have been making lately.

There were some great rolling ravines in the park that I would have probaby exploited had I not been keen of the IMBA methods - they would have been far from sustainable. Every compromise has it's ramifications. But I know, that just above that ravine is a sweet downhill that throws you violently back and forth and finishes with a nice rolling uphill offcamber, a section that is much more fun than the old downhill we closed - one which had three trails evolving as a result of the changing wetness during different seasons.

I know that my favorite trails are not sustainable (the Farm, Moab), I can't imagine what Porcupine Rim would ride like if it had to be sustainable. I doubt I would make the trip to Moab if everything had been built sustain-ably. But it's not in the middle of Minneapolis, and they have a different multi-use approach.

We built some very technical trail at Afton for the IMBA trail school - but it's private property, so it was up to the land owner to decide. He decided to take a more aggressive approach - and the trail reflects this. For him, too much traffic is a good thing that he'll willingly deal with should it become a problem. It was a committe of one, so things get simple.

There are tons of trails in the area that still offer this kind of unbridled terrain - but we're not going to be one of them. Never really were - there were very few technical features that I recall - a couple of short downhills, a log across the trail in a few spots. Most of the technical stuff was merely an evolutionary trail - when something got so bad you couldn't ride it, there would be another trail that would pop up right next to it that was often times just as interesting and just as unsustainable. Obviously, we can't take that approach.

[thebionicman]

I think one other thing that should be noted for everyone to know. Zone 3 is also an example of making a point to point loop. The city wanted us to show them that we can make a loop that connects us from point to point, make it as straight as possible (no gratuitous trail [Tim...]).

If we get to move farther south after the Pilot Project is complete you should see some great terrain to work with, maybe some actual hills.

[Wheels]

I think one other thing that should be noted for everyone to know. Zone 3 is also an example of making a point to point loop. The city wanted us to show them that we can make a loop that connects us from point to point, make it as straight as possible (no gratuitous trail [Tim...]).

If we get to move farther south after the Pilot Project is complete you should see some great terrain to work with, maybe some actual hills.

But everyone needs to keep in mind that by accepting the pilot project constraints - we took the risk of creating a mountain bike park that would not expand. This has been the position of the city from the onset of the proposal, so Bill and I made the decision to take advantage of as much of the terrain as possible so that we would be ensured as much riding time as possible in the limited space.

If we would have made wide-open trail in a sustainable way - there just wouldn't be much there.

It looks as though the tact has been controversial. Bill quit over this very issue, he was not happy with the cities request to make less trail - for fear we may never get to utilize the terrain in the future. And now it sounds like there are some disappointments and critiques from within and from the sidelines.

Keep in mind as well or train of thought, that anything moving south would likely be a thouroughfare, without the luxury of meandering as much as we have been able to in the park. If these areas become available to us, you will see much more open and cardio rev inducing trail system with a more diverse character.

There is a much bigger plan, and we've done our best to consider all opinions and future considerations. It's been a difficult balancing game, I hope that all can get on board and understand that this is far from over - it's just getting started and there will soon be opportunity for a more diverse trail system that allows everyone's wishes to be incorportated in some way.

I'm not being defensive here - but Pete and I are the only origianal MOCA board members left from the start of this thing three years ago, if you only knew how close we've come to simply imploding when we were down to three people...this thing almost never happened at all.

We've done the best we know how, where it goes from here is up to you.

[thebionicman]

Erik, I get the feeling this is a rucurring gripe of your's, the twistyness - and Tim as well. But everyone needs to keep in mind that by accepting the pilot project constraints - we took the risk of creating a mountain bike park that would not expand. This has been the position of the city from the onset of the proposal, so Bill and I made the decision to take advantage of as much of the terrain as possible so that we would be ensured as much riding time as possible in the limited space.
Its not a gripe of mine, the gratuitous comment was suppose to be a joke. I know there has been a lot of hurdles that we have had to go through, that is what I was trying to convey. Let everyone know why we are doing what we are doing.

And for Zone 3, I think we have gotten a better part for what we are loosing.

I would also like to thank Shawn, Pete and Bill for all of the work that they have done to get us to this point.

[Wheels]

Its not a gripe of mine, the gratuitous comment was suppose to be a joke. I know there has been a lot of hurdles that we have had to go through, that is what I was trying to convey. Let everyone know why we are doing what we are doing.

And for Zone 3, I think we have gotten a better part for what we are loosing.

I would also like to thank Shawn, Pete and Bill for all of the work that they have done to get us to this point.

No problem, I'm just feeling a bit insecure about the responsibility for all of this.

When I said Pete and I were the only one's left - I meant the only active MOCA board members from the first days. Tim Wegner of IMBA has been just as deeply involved and critical to the success from the very beginning.

I meant that there were friendly gripes about trail design, I should have state it as such. Tim has always been supportive of our overall plan and more than just instumental in the implimentation and interaction with the MPRB.

The "gratuitous" trail Erik is referring to is a section at the end of Zone 1 where I laid out some trail on a relatively flat area - something I shouldn't have done.

[oldgrowth]

Wow, thanks for the great responses, everyone. I'm of course glad to hear that we might end up with some more challenging and better flowing trails in Wirth. But I'm also pleased that there seems to be some sort of agreement about the new singletrack: namely, that it is a beginner/intermediate loop meant to accomodate as many bikers as possible, and that it is meant to demonstrate MORC/MOCA's ability to build 'sustainable' trails. I can appreciate how these two goals are necessary at such an early stage of trailbuilding. I guess the challenge is to build 'sustainable' trails that are still exciting, and that have a particular goal in mind. As long as we're talking about 'sustainability,' whose criteria are used to decide whether Twin Cities trails are sustainable, or how sustainable they are? Sustainability's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit these days, but isn't a certain amount of erosion inevitable on any trail, whether we're talking about walkers, bikers, horses, dogsleds, or whatever? So who makes that call?

[thebionicman]

All the trails are built to IMBA standards.

http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/index.html

If you are really interested in seeing more, I highly recommend the new book from IMBA, IMBA's Guide to Building Sweet Singletrack.

[thebionicman]

The "gratuitous" trail Erik is referring to is a section at the end of Zone 1 where I laid out some trail on a relatively flat area - something I shouldn't have done.
You know I just wanted to keep the trail through those Oaks!!!!

[gopherhockey]

As long as we're talking about 'sustainability,' whose criteria are used to decide whether Twin Cities trails are sustainable, or how sustainable they are? Sustainability's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit these days, but isn't a certain amount of erosion inevitable on any trail, whether we're talking about walkers, bikers, horses, dogsleds, or whatever? So who makes that call?Another excellent question - you are on a roll!

This is a good question. First, you are completely right - a certain amount of erosion is definitely inevitable no matter what you do... when you push the limits of trail grade or make a sometimes necessary climbing turn you will have problems (just giving a few examples).

One thing everyone should know is that we are all learning each and every day that we lay out trail and build. Even at Lebanon we learned a lot right up to the end. Ultimately you have someone responsible for trail design and they become the first person to make this call. If the people flagging the trail push the limits or make various trail changes for whatever reason, they are setting the trail up for its ultimate sustainability. Then you either have machines or a crew doing the bench cut, then a finishing crew... all of these have a certain amount of determination on trail sustainability as well.

After the trail is finished, you then try to assume you've done your best to make it "sustainable" as much as possible. Obvious deviations are always noted as things that will need regular maintenance... some of these end up standing up better than other sections of the trail that were supposed to be perfect... its kind of a guessing game sometimes once riders actually get on it and put some miles and mother nature does her thing. You usually have to come back and tweak if your goal is to minimize long term trail maintenance.

In the end you have the riders. Many trails will hold up for years and years with average rider miles, but if you have a ton of traffic that all can change (e.g. Lebanon) You also have that one guy who can't wait until a trail dries up that can ruin everything that all the people mentioned above worked so hard on.

To answer your question though I think the people doing the initial trail layout has the most to do with sustainability. The guys that are out there flagging have to use their crystal ball as much as possible, while also keeping in mind the wishes of the land managers. Guys like Tim Wegner and Dale Gundberg have been kind of the pioneers of trail layout in our area. Guys like Shawn Sheely will do trail layout on their respective trails, often taking tips from Tim/Dale who ultimately got their tips and knowledge from IMBA. (see Erik's post on a great IMBA book..)

I shouldn't forget to say that the majority of work on (fully legal) area trails is done under MORC, MOCA or another affiliate of MORC. MORC is the club that eventually makes these trails possible, and its the organization that sets the tone for whats happening now and in the future.

[Wheels]

Good response John.

I just wanted to add that none of this would have been possible without the incredible efforts of Tim Wegner and orginization support of MORC. We've always been a bit independent about our approach to getting this thing done - and Tim and MORC have been there every step of the way doing whatever they can to help us cut our eye teeth.

Where all these guys get their energy and commitment is hard to fathom, but we couldn't have done it without them - and feel as though we're all on the same page when it comes to getting it done, and getting it done right.

[Trevize1138]

I just want to say to anyone who hasn't been out to Theo in a while that you should get out there before the freezing rain and snow flies! This trail is really coming together, and the newer trails built in the last month or so have some excellent flow and a lot of spots that are simply fun. If you've been looking for some good berms to ride, Theo is now the place! Get out there, ride it and check it out. You'll be quite happy =).

[redwood]

I checked out the new stuff in section 3 today (or is it 3A). You guys did a real nice job with those in slope turns. Or what ever they're called now. Nice flow. Good work.:crazy2:

[thebionicman]

I rode tonight, the trail is in great shape. My only complaint is that I can see in Zone 5 where someone rode through the new stuff with a bike with skinny tires when it was muddy. You can actually see all of the fines (sand) in those little ruts.

Zone 3a is really great. Gives the area a whole new perspective.

[flombe]

I got out tonight for a couple of laps! Froze my toes. I think temps were upper 20's. Time for booties or winter shoes. Any recommendations on either? Pros and cons of shoes vs. booties?.

Trail is rock solid. A light frost made for a few sketchy corners.

Saw no one. On my second lap I heard a whitetail buck bugling. Pretty cool after I realized what it was. Sure got me to open up the eyes and look as far ahead as possible!

I noticed the trail between the second and third berms after splitting the trees coming down section 3A is soft on the right hand side (who finished this anyway, oh yeah that was me, the rookie). The berms could use a little fine tuning too in terms of entry and exit lines although they work just fine as is.

Get out there before the snow flies!

[stoneage]

I got out tonight for a couple of laps! Froze my toes. I think temps were upper 20's. Time for booties or winter shoes. Any recommendations on either? Pros and cons of shoes vs. booties?.

Trail is rock solid. A light frost made for a few sketchy corners.

Saw no one. On my second lap I heard a whitetail buck bugling. Pretty cool after I realized what it was. Sure got me to open up the eyes and look as far ahead as possible!

I noticed the trail between the second and third berms after splitting the trees coming down section 3A is soft on the right hand side (who finished this anyway, oh yeah that was me, the rookie). The berms could use a little fine tuning too in terms of entry and exit lines although they work just fine as is.

Get out there before the snow flies!
A good pair of winter booties run 30-40 bucks. A good winter shoe is over 200. That said, you will have the shoes for many years. Lake makes a really nice pair. Sidi are good, but I bet they are 300-350 this year against the euro.The Pyramid neoprene booties (Kenwood) let me go to 10-15 F. for a couple of hours.
Speaking of bucks; that male at Wirth is huge. He is as wide as a Tercel. Be very careful on the North side, by the hospital. He usually hangs there. They will hurt you. A Kenwood racer got taken down by one at Bassett Creek in the state cross race this weekend.

[thebionicman]

I rode yesterday afternoon and froze me toes off. I made the mistake of not wearing my booties. I like them, after I got the rubber cut the correct way on the bottom.

[Tim Wegner]

I was thinking about destroying 2 birds with one stone (not politically correct to say Kill) How about Goretex socks? Do they work to keep your tootsies warm? It would be nice to have them for some other activities I do and would buy a pair if I could use them for biking as well.

TW

[soupboy]

...they will change your winter riding for the better. I struggled with the compromised solution of booties + Goretex sock + heavier wool socks - not too comfortable when you're stuffing them into shoes typically used with a thin bike sock.

I need only a light wool or regular cycling sock throughout the winter. No experience on the Sidis.

Sean

I got out tonight for a couple of laps! Froze my toes. I think temps were upper 20's. Time for booties or winter shoes. Any recommendations on either? Pros and cons of shoes vs. booties?.

Trail is rock solid. A light frost made for a few sketchy corners.

Saw no one. On my second lap I heard a whitetail buck bugling. Pretty cool after I realized what it was. Sure got me to open up the eyes and look as far ahead as possible!

I noticed the trail between the second and third berms after splitting the trees coming down section 3A is soft on the right hand side (who finished this anyway, oh yeah that was me, the rookie). The berms could use a little fine tuning too in terms of entry and exit lines although they work just fine as is.

Get out there before the snow flies!

[Wheels]

The Lake boots are the best thing going - but they're almost too good. The Sidi's are a waste of $$. I don't wear mine unless its below 30 degrees, then I'll only wear a thin wool over-the-calf sock like Smart Wool. Below 20 degrees I'll use the Castelli wind socks, then below 10 degrees its the thin wool sock with the Castelli sock over the top.

Make sure to buy your Lakes a half size too big, or size them with a wind sock on.

For weather like we've been having lately, the Castelli wind sock with your normal riding shoes should do the trick (just the sock, nothing else) - but if your shoe is a well ventilated racing shoe - stop by your favorite shop or go to Nashbar and pick up a closeout pair of something more sport/recreational for spring and fall, as you're only going to use them for two months out of the year.

I actually wear the Gore socks for all kinds of things in the winter, even use them around the house when things get too chilly - well, actually - I wear them every day in the winter. I'm hooked.

The key to staying warm is reducing how much you sweat, so it will take some practice - but I find I make changes in my layering for every 10 degrees, and I layer from the inside out. In other words, I don't use booties and such unless I'm using them to keep the slop out on wet days.

[gopherhockey]

I got a pair of the Gaerne Polar boots on sale last year - have only tried them once or twice. From what I understand they aren't as much of a true northern cold weather boot as others, but for the amount and type of cold weather riding I do they fit the purpose well.

In fact last year I tried riding with them in 20 degree weather and my feet almost melted... I think its because they are so weatherproof that they dno't allow heat and perspiration to escape.

If I were hard core I'd have purchased the Lake... I've read that they are just a little harder to get on and off as most others and of course aren't as waterproof.

Here is an article on some of the boots available:

http://www.velonews.com/tech/gadgets/articles/3272.0.html

[The Bull]

I am looking to ride this trail this weekend. However, I cannot make heads or tails out of where to park or enter the trail. I looked at the trail review and no luck there. So, were do you park and enter the trail? Is the trail well marked? Thanks.

[thebionicman]

I am looking to ride this trail this weekend. However, I cannot make heads or tails out of where to park or enter the trail. I looked at the trail review and no luck there. So, were do you park and enter the trail? Is the trail well marked? Thanks.
Jeff,

No one parks and rides in, everyone rides there, okay maybe not everyone. As far as parking goes, the Par 3 lot is closed for the season. I would suggest parking on the frontage road in front on Harmann Autoglass, off of Hwy 55. You can get to the road by turning on the road that is one block west of Theodore Wirth Parkway.

Get yourself to the N.W. corner of Hwy 55 and Theodore Wirth Parkway. You can enter there, you will see a trail going in off of the paved trail. As you get into the woods stay to the left. Keep riding till you come down a short downhill. You will see an opening in the fence, go right. This section will have traffic in both directions through a gully (this part is going away:cryin: ).

You will end up going through the fence at the north end of this section coming out to a set of railroad tracks. Go left for about 50 yards. You will see a trail that goes north. Take that and you will end up on an access road. Take this to the left. You will come accross a Y in the road. Goto the left and up the hill. On the top of the hill you will see a trail that goes into the left. Take it and take an immediate right, this will but you on the main loop. Now just ride.

You can check out the maps here:

http://www.mocatrails.org/images/clean040914.jpg

[flombe]

I laughed when I thought to myself how to describe to get to and ride the loop, but Mr. Gerrits has concisely described what to do and where.

The only thing I see missed is how to get to the new stuff at 3A. I'll give that a shot.

After riding the main loop on the north side of the tracks, cross back over the tracks on the same trail you entered and wind back through the gully. Just before you get to the opening in the fence (not the one by the tracks) there is an option to go up the hill to the left. If you cross an uphill log pile you are on the right trail. Take this trail up and keep making right hand turns until you hit newly constructed trail. Follow this (you will connect to bits of existing trail) and eventually the new trail turns to the left and heads down the new sections with the berms. Ride over a couple of logs at the bottom and you have completed the sanctioned system.

[Trevize1138]

Platforms! Then, just wear a pair of hiking boots or other cold weather footwear you've already got. Cost: $20-30 for the pedals. Added side-benefit: you'll learn more control over your bike as you're forced to bunny hop *properly* and not relying on the crutch of pulling up on your pedals. When warmer weather comes around and you throw the clipless on, you'll be faster and more ajile than ever! ;)

[noise_is_life]

Platforms! Then, just wear a pair of hiking boots or other cold weather footwear you've already got. Cost: $20-30 for the pedals. Added side-benefit: you'll learn more control over your bike as you're forced to bunny hop *properly* and not relying on the crutch of pulling up on your pedals. When warmer weather comes around and you throw the clipless on, you'll be faster and more ajile than ever! ;)
That's what I do too, works pretty good. Hasn't helped by bunny hopping skills any though.

[noise_is_life]

I was just out for a quickie and saw the two-cycle elves blowing the leaves out there. The trail was amazingly wet under the leaves in some places, but seemed to be drying up really fast once the leaves were gone.

I don't mind riding on the leaves, but it was a blast to be riding on clean trail, and it is obviously the right thing to be doing for the health of the new singletrack.

[Dominican boy]

I rode today at 10:30. Cold, 2 cold, Ground was frozen and dry. Squirrels stay in the sun beam taking some heat. Do not scare them please Don't Litter, i saw a 4 wrappers of Nutrigrain Bars, c'mon men Nutrigrain Bars?? simple sugars geez...

[redwood]

Platforms! Then, just wear a pair of hiking boots or other cold weather footwear you've already got. Cost: $20-30 for the pedals. Added side-benefit: you'll learn more control over your bike as you're forced to bunny hop *properly* and not relying on the crutch of pulling up on your pedals. When warmer weather comes around and you throw the clipless on, you'll be faster and more ajile than ever! ;)
Chris D - Please set me straight. I can clear a 12" log at speed when clipped in to my pedels, but on platform pedals i can't move the back wheel 3 ".

How the heck does one bunny hop properly?

I've spent hours going back and forth in an empty parking lot but still cant figure it out.

[FSSS]

How the heck does one bunny hop properly?
http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9239



How did the leaf blowing go?

How much trail got cleared?


Thanks!!

[noise_is_life]

How did the leaf blowing go?

How much trail got cleared?

Thanks!!
They had it all finished up last night, it looks great.

[99FSRComp]

Chris D - Please set me straight. I can clear a 12" log at speed when clipped in to my pedels, but on platform pedals i can't move the back wheel 3 ".

How the heck does one bunny hop properly?

I've spent hours going back and forth in an empty parking lot but still cant figure it out.
I keep telling myself every year that I need to learn how to bunny hop. Anyone know of any good instructional text/video?

[FSSS]

I keep telling myself every year that I need to learn how to bunny hop. Anyone know of any good instructional text/video?
Here is a link to a thread on the subject:
http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9239

Post your question there, you'll get more answers.

[el gueche]

http://www.bmxbasics.org/new/bmx1095.html follow it and you'll find videos

[BrightYellow]

Was out on the trail today for the first time this year.

Nice job guys! The trail has a really nice flow....

It was a little slimey in spots, which really surprised me since it hasn't rained in a while. I didn't think the frost would be a problem yet, but that must have been it.

[thebionicman]

We took a look at those slimey spots and it seems to be frost thaw problems. At least that is what we are hoping for. Cause natural springs would be a big problem to deal with.

[ryno lite]

Checked out Theo for the first time since early summer. WOW! You guys sure got a lot done! I know not everyone has liked the changes, but count me in as a person who loves the new trail. It is a blast! Thanks for the directions to the trail. It was a great description! I would have never have found everything so easily without the directions. I am definetely going to be pointing my bike up to Theo every so often! It could be my second favorite behind Leb! Again, great job guys! It is awesome!

[Wheels]

The trails are in great condition - so get out for a ride if you can before it gets much colder. Please walk the muddy section on the north side of section 3 (3b) - looks like we opened a natural spring. Should be fine once we get the trail packed-in.

On another note, congrats to Erik Gerrits - our new Southern MN IMBA rep!

Also, if anyone knows the folks building new trail near Cedar Lake - please ask them to stop - they're only making things worse for the big picture. The area where they are building is just packed with broken glass anyway - so if you see new trail over there - I wouldn't ride it unless you're carrying a spare tire.

I hear they were out there on Sunday, they could have given us a hand in the legit areas - and saved us effort the effort we'll have to spend closing what they built. Bummer.

The Cedar Lake area is going to be one the hardest areas to procure for trails in the future, the community is well organized over there - they've set themselves up as an independently funded organization - and have a lot of pull - although the Parks Dept. has more. Building trail back there is only going to make things harder in the future.

If you live in the Cedar Lake area - please contact us or come to a meeting. We could use some locals to start building some goodwill on behalf of the bikers.

The MOCA meeting is this Wednesday at the Kenwood community center, 7:00 - all are encouraged to attend.

Go ride.

[cockleburr]

I've been riding there for 25 years, there's always been trails there. Just stay off the NO BIKES posted trails. That's when we blow it all for all of us.

[noise_is_life]

Oh yeah well I've been riding around there for 2.5 years, or something... :D

Anyway, did anyone ride yesterday, wondering how Theo is holding up to the warm and moist but not rainy weather.

[SuperClydesdale]

Oh yeah well I've been riding around there for 2.5 years, or something... :D

Anyway, did anyone ride yesterday, wondering how Theo is holding up to the warm and moist but not rainy weather.
Pat

I rode Wirth last night. Kinda spooky in the light fog. Man, deer eyes are bright when hit with HID!

Just the slightest bit of dampness at the exit of Zone 5. I stayed away from Zone 3 because of the spring?

Going to ride the RB tonight.

Mark

[noise_is_life]

Just rode it. It's in pretty good shape, couple of soft spots.

Zone 3 is totally fine, I couldn't see where the spring was supposed to be, I think it was just frost melt.

Haven't quite figured out that cement drop yet, I've only had one really smooth drop on it, I keep landing a little forward. All of the ber...um...I mean in-slope turns are so fun.

Have fun at the bottoms Captain, I'll be at the MOCA board meeting...

[Wheels]

Hi All,

I just wanted to write a couple of lines about some of the things I've been talking to other's about - outside of this forum. It's obviously we'll read by many. I think there's an information void out there - so I've been at times posting here to try to enlighten those that are concerned about our methods and their effect on the system.

Overall, the feedback about the new trails has been positive - but there have been some complaints about the closing of existing trail, and replacing it with new trail - sometimes within feet of the old trail.

The primary reason for this comes down to sustainability. If you take a look at some of the old trail, you'll notice it's cupped, or compacted. Basically, the trail is lower than the surrounding soil. Amazingly, much of this trail has held up over the years, but often times it will migrate when conditions get bad. This natural evolution of the trail is one of the charming things about the old rogue system, but the migration issue is one of the main factors in why you may see new trail right next to old trail that seems to be just fine.

But with increased traffic, the existing trail that is cupped - will not hold up. We saw this when the SSWC event took place. The trails took a hellish beating that day, and took some time and effort to recover. This is our mandate, to create sustainable trail that requires less maintenance - and will hold up to the increased traffic that is sure to follow a successful program and broader knowledge of the existence of the trails.

In addition to the issue of sustainability, Bill O'Reilly, Pete McKinney (who GPS's the system regularly) and I spent a great deal of time looking at Sweeny Park from the perspective of multi-users. We looked at the natural flow of foot traffic over the years, and identified those trails and entrances primarily used by walkers.

The loop we came up with, although viewed as somewhat constraining to the free flow of the old days - sought to reduce the chances of bike/walker encounters - and concentrated on creating trail that is perpendicular to the natural walking direction that has evolved in an effort to discourage walkers from creating shortcuts on the new trail to get to a destination like the beach or prairie.

One of the trail elders I spoke to recently pointed out that the new trail system was more likely to create encounters - but I have to disagree. The chances of coming head to head with a walker at speed has been greatly reduced with the new loop. No longer do you have to take the Western connector from RR to reach the system - instead there is an extra 1/8 mile of new trail that takes pressure off of that walking trail, and instead gives us our own - much more interesting and winding trail. The trail is also more sustainable as a result.

On the issue of trail proliferation in other areas of the Parks system, such as Cedar Lake - MOCA agreed to discourage rogue trail building in the system in an effort to create responsibility and goodwill in those areas that have existing marked (closed) and non-marked (but technically non-legit) trail (Butler, Bog, Brownie, Cedar). We have been asked to report rogue trail (although the city often knows about this as soon as we do) and to make an effort to contact those rogue builders and close new trail when possible. This is the compromise we have to make if we want to create the goodwill that will make it possible for us to make these areas legit in the future.

Geno is right, nobody should be riding in areas that are posted "No Biking", and we haven't had any problems yet in Cedar - and although we've been riding back that there for 20+ years - that doesn't mean one more new trail being built now won't be the spark that gets that area marked as closed as well.

As I said earlier, the community group in that area is very organized and has demonstrated pull - we need a moratorium on this kind of rogue activity for now, and we need everyone on board with the effort and understanding of the big picture.

I understand that the person doing the rogue work now is the same person that built the Brownie trail - currently the biggest sore spot with the city of all the trails in the system due to it's continued deterioration and poor sustainability. I also understand that he may have actually come out at times and worked with MOCA on trail nights, so he's been standing right next to those of us who are working so hard to do this the right way. It's really a bit discouraging.

To that person - please stop building new trail. You are the only person who is building rogue trail in the system right now - and you're only making it harder to build the kind of goodwill that we need to work within the bureaucracy. We will close this kind of new trail, so your efforts are in vain. I think you have to look at what there is to gain, vs. what little extra trail you are contributing to the rogue system.

Approve of the current process or not, it's the way things are going. You can go it alone, complain from the sidelines, or come out and get involved so that your ideas become our ideas. There are only a handful of people actually doing all of the work out there - and in many ways our hands are tied by the bureaucracy, but the only way to make it better is to get involved and lend a hand. We're doing the best we can with what we have, but we could sure use more help.

Please work with us, not against us.

[redwood]

First of all, Shawn, I appreciate your latest posting. It's important to keep a calm and rational tone even in the face of conflict.

Second, as far as a lone actor creating/maintaining trails at brownie/cedar lake, I have personally seen multiple different people and small groups working on the trails at different times there. I don't think that these are coordinated efforts, but rather a multitude of individuals acting of their own volition to keep up the trails they and many others like to ride.

My main point is my concern over the future of brownie lake. On this forum you have voiced your intent to shut down this trail system multiple times. I love brownie lake. Not only can i ride my bike to the trail, but it is yard for yard the most challenging and rewarding trail in the metro. I have never ridden a trail in any part of the country that simultaneously challenges bike handling skills and aerobic capacity to such a degree.

I would like to point out that improvements have been regularly made to the trail. I have seen washed out areas reapaired in a timely fashion with structurally sound and astheticly pleasant techniques. It seems to me that the trail is holding up to the volume of traffic it gets. Brownie lake will never get the volume of traffic of theo or leb, simply because not that many people can ride and enjoy it. I have riding partners who can clear the xx at Lebanon hills, but are always beaten by brownie.

Another remarkeable thing about the brownie lake trail is the length of trail and the quality of experience it packs into a postage stamp sized strip of land.

If Brownie lake is closed or converted to the beginner trails like Theo, WHERE WILL WE GO TO RIDE? The Farm is a long drive for most of us and is closing down anyway. Minnesota is not blessed with challenging terrain. A tough single track, even if it's just 1.5 miles, is worth fighting for.

Brownie lake is a long established trail that fills a critical niche in local cyling opportunities. There are people now and over the years who have taken it upon themselves to maintain the trail without any funding or recognition for their efforts.

WHO DOES IT HARM TO TURN A BLIND EYE AND LEAVE BROWNIE AS IT IS?

[Wheels]

Thanks Zach,

Most importantly - I love Brownie too. I've done my fair share of maintanence on it as well. It's really up to the city, and when I say "we need to close it" I mean that the city has asked us to close it until it can be done properly.

In my opinion - the reason it has fallen apart so bad lately is that the City approved a parking lot exansion for Target - which now causes huge runoff onto the hillside. The city is aware of their involvement in the degradation - so they've backed off a bit in the blame game.

We do have allies in the Parks dept. that have always restrained efforts to post trails with No Bikes signs - they delayed the posting of Wirth proper for 2 years, knowing that once a trail is closed - it's a much bigger effort to get it open again.

I don't know what we do about Brownie, but I think all agree that in order for it to stay unsigned we need to make some fixes. I think you're right, we need this kind of challenging trail in the system. Proving ourselves comes first, then more agressive trail can be implimented.

I think we can figure out a way to keep Brownie challenging - maybe you can help us with a plan. We parked the issue because we simply don't have the resources right now to deal with it. Right now it's just an issue of keeping it unsigned - so we don't have to fight so hard to keep it at all.

Brownie will be a black diamond trail at the least - at least that's how we've always communicated our position to the city.

[noise_is_life]

I'm sure Shawn will have a more detailed answer, but the simple fact is that although we can turn a blind I to Brownie, the City IS not. They are fully aware of it and have talked about blocking it off and closing it down.

Brownie is the reason that I got involved with MOCA, it was obvious to me at the time that it