How do I get grip on sandy turns?

[f16xelecx]

While riding at lebanon hills today I was riding behind some riders that were turning very hard and fast around sharp corners that are getting sandy because of the dry weather. When I try to keep up I would slip out my front wheel and had to slow down. Is there any trick to getting more grip? Does it have to do with special tires? Mine are pretty knobby but it doesn't seem to help. Can you change the tire pressure to help some? Or is there a technique in it? If anyone knows and would like to fill me in that would be awesome.

[Kingbozo]

While riding at lebanon hills today I was riding behind some riders that were turning very hard and fast around sharp corners that are getting sandy because of the dry weather. When I try to keep up I would slip out my front wheel and had to slow down. Is there any trick to getting more grip? Does it have to do with special tires? Mine are pretty knobby but it doesn't seem to help. Can you change the tire pressure to help some? Or is there a technique in it? If anyone knows and would like to fill me in that would be awesome.
Try lowering your tire pressue 5lbs. Also, although it seems counter-intuitive it would probably help if you shifted your weight forward on those corners. An exagerated example of that would be a "super cross" race. You can see the riders slide up onto the gas tanks of their bikes going into the corners.

[Trevize1138]

I usually run 40 psi front, 50 psi rear. I settled on this more definitively recently when, for the heck of it, I tried going 50/50. On the very first loop, in the Beginner section, my front tire slid out on me and I skinned my knee. I took 10 psi out of the front tire and kept it that way. No more slide outs.

I like keeping the rear tire a little harder for two reasons: less rolling resistance and to ensure that it will be the first to slide out. That way, I get a little warning about slippery conditions while my front tire still has traction. You often use your rear tire's slide-out nature to help around corners, too.

[homebrewbiker]

I usually run 40 psi front, 50 psi rear. I settled on this more definitively recently when, for the heck of it, I tried going 50/50. On the very first loop, in the Beginner section, my front tire slid out on me and I skinned my knee. I took 10 psi out of the front tire and kept it that way. No more slide outs.

I like keeping the rear tire a little harder for two reasons: less rolling resistance and to ensure that it will be the first to slide out. That way, I get a little warning about slippery conditions while my front tire still has traction. You often use your rear tire's slide-out nature to help around corners, too.
Hmm. I generally run much lower pressure. Somewhere around 30 -35. I t hought I read that 25 - 40 is the recommended psi when going over rough terrain.

[Kosk]

Ride, ride, ride. The more experience you get, the more you'll find where the edge of that envelope is of how fast/hard you can push it.

Your tire profile may affect your cornering more than pressure. I run 50 front and back and have no problem. If your tires are very round you may find you slip out sooner than a tire that has taller side lugs, giving it a little more of a "square" profile. At least that's what I've experienced. Also a FS ride will tend to "hook-up" more than a hardtail.

Another thing you can do is try leaning your body through the corner more than your bike. Get up out of the saddle slightly and shift your hips and upperbody to the inside of the turn, but at the same time think about leaving the bike where it is, more vertical and just turning the wheel with your hands. This will help you in some cases, but sometimes terrain, trees, & speed dictate otherwise. Somewhere between this and a normal leaning turn is the optimum for each corner.

Still, I would say experience by riding is the best answer, just ride hard, alot, and you'll see improvement. It's not always the equipment. I bet you could throw Lance on a old pink Huffy 10 spd with two flat tires and he could still whoop everyones butt in a race, just because he has so much riding experience.

[Trevize1138]

Your tire profile may affect your cornering more than pressure. I run 50 front and back and have no problem. If your tires are very round you may find you slip out sooner than a tire that has taller side lugs, giving it a little more of a "square" profile. At least that's what I've experienced. Also a FS ride will tend to "hook-up" more than a hardtail.
Heh, that's funny, 'cause I know so many very experienced riders with decades of BMX experience who complain that MTB tires tend to have TOO tall of a side tread and wish they could get rounder tires like in the BMX world.

The trouble with taller side knobs is on many tires they tend to flex a bit too much, which can cause them to slide out easier, too.

But, I fully agree that one of the best things you can do is just ride and get used to where your wheels slide out. I've also highly recommended people try putting a foot out on corners to really push the envelope and get a feel for things. Eventually you'll put your foot out less, but it's a great way to test the limits while still having a safety net (or safety foot, as the case may be).

[Kosk]

trouble with taller side knobs is on many tires they tend to flex a bit too much

Word, I know what your saying about mushing out. I finally discovered Panaracer's Fire model on a Moab trip a 3 or 4 years ago and I swear by them now. They have the stiff side wall that extends into the side lugs and keeps them from getting too mushy. These tires hold up real well. I like the big dogs, 2.3 or 2.4, they are bomber.

That is another thing that may help your cornering, run a bigger front tire. I always rode 2.1's and then I got a 2.3 for the front wheel and noticed I could rally a lot harder down and around corners. I eventually went to 2.3 DH Pro's on both ends. If you ride 1.8's or some skinny tire like that you may notice an increase in turnability with a wider tire. (If you don't mind the extra weight of course.)

[manual63]

In BMX we would run a 2.1 up front and a 1.75 in the rear to get more cornering traction. It also works on mountain bikes, but now there are much bigger tires available. The thing that took me awhile to get used to was the higher center of gravity on an MTB vs a BMX bike. I learned you have to lower your body, lean more forward and I dive my inside shoulder low and hard into the corner first.....then everything else falls in place. I was at Leb today and it's pretty sandy. I had to back off a little, but was still able to hit corners fairly fast.

Prectice will be the only way to get good at it. Also, take Chris' advice about unclipping your inside foot and if needed, put your foot out there and push harder into the turn. You will start to learn the limits this way without killing yourself.

Have fun........:)

[f16xelecx]

thanks for all of the advice. I'll try adjusting the tire pressures a bit and see if that works. My tires say 45 to 69 psi so I had been running about 55. I guess that seems high from what you guys said. It ususally only matters when it's sandy like this out. That's why it's hard to figure out where the limit is because it's always changing on a trail that's ridden as hard as lebanon.

[syntaxjunkie]

One thing that hasn't been talked about as much here (and may only be a factor for people built like me) is rider weight.

I tip the scales at around 210, and I've been a tire junkie ever since I started riding. What I've discovered is that I have no business riding anything less than a 2.1" tire (front and back), inflated to no more than 40 psi.

The physics make sense: 210 pounds of me leaning into a turn is going to require more tire on dirt to keep the bike up than 160 pounds of someone else would. Higher psi means less rolling resistance, but it also means less tread contact with the trail, which is crucial to keeping the rubber side down. Ditto with skinny (i.e. 1.9") tires.

I thought I'd found the perfect tire for me in the Hutchinson Python. Nice, fairly wide footprint, low rolling resistance, good traction. What I discovered is that it was the perfect tire for me when I wasn't as aggressive a rider. When I got better and gained confidence, I started leaning into the corners a little more, and that's when I started to lose hook-up. One shoulder separation later, I'm putting my trust in a pair of Continental Explorer Pros. Bigger tire and bigger knobs, but with great climbing traction and hook-up that won't quit.

Obviously, there are plenty of other tires that fit this description. I'm just sharing what's worked for me. And I definitely think dropping your psi will help. Good luck and great riding.

[Tetreves]

One thing that hasn't been talked about as much here (and may only be a factor for people built like me) is rider weight.

I tip the scales at around 210, and I've been a tire junkie ever since I started riding. What I've discovered is that I have no business riding anything less than a 2.1" tire (front and back), inflated to no more than 40 psi.

The physics make sense: 210 pounds of me leaning into a turn is going to require more tire on dirt to keep the bike up than 160 pounds of someone else would. Higher psi means less rolling resistance, but it also means less tread contact with the trail, which is crucial to keeping the rubber side down. Ditto with skinny (i.e. 1.9") tires.

That does make sense. I weigh about 180 and I'm currently riding 2.2's (though I'm going to switch to a different tire at some point), and I can run them as low as about 25 and no pinch flats. I usually run them about 35 or so for less rolling resistance. At 25 they hold out fine and grip great, but feel like they "roll over" in a hard corner. It's like the tire grips the ground so well that it's about to rip itself off of the rim. 35 is what I've been running lately on these tires and it's been ok, but I think I'm now going to buy a tire with shorter or stiffer knobbies, like a Panaracer Fire XC, or maybe a Specialized Roll-X. I'm running Spec. Enduro's now. They grip really well, especially loose, loamy stuff, and any wet or slippery roots/rocks, partly cuz it's a softer rubber, but it also has a very aggresive tread pattern. A wider tire can be run at a lower pressure with less fear of pinch flats. Think of the magician who lays down on a bed of nails.

[bradpartyka]

That does make sense. I weigh about 180 and I'm currently riding 2.2's (though I'm going to switch to a different tire at some point), and I can run them as low as about 25 and no pinch flats. I usually run them about 35 or so for less rolling resistance. At 25 they hold out fine and grip great, but feel like they "roll over" in a hard corner. It's like the tire grips the ground so well that it's about to rip itself off of the rim. 35 is what I've been running lately on these tires and it's been ok, but I think I'm now going to buy a tire with shorter or stiffer knobbies, like a Panaracer Fire XC, or maybe a Specialized Roll-X. I'm running Spec. Enduro's now. They grip really well, especially loose, loamy stuff, and any wet or slippery roots/rocks, partly cuz it's a softer rubber, but it also has a very aggresive tread pattern. A wider tire can be run at a lower pressure with less fear of pinch flats. Think of the magician who lays down on a bed of nails.
I run the Panaracer Fire XC Front and back. I have 2.1 in front and 1.8 in back. They are awesome. I haven't tried lower air pressure though.

[el gueche]

im new at this but i've years of street mc experience - when i started at the beginning of this season i was washing out all the time - did some research and found my irc tires were awful and found lots of complaints about washouts - upgraded my tires to kenda nevegal lites 1.9 i think - no more washouts - kinda pricey but i only ride 'em on the trails - when i got the tires i started checking air pressure before every ride - as reported the smallest change in pressure can be felt - i've found that 38 psi fnb is good for the way i ride - this weekend i think i'll try a little more in back - when i remember to ride the front in a turn it feels much better and the rear follows quicker - i've been working on getting physical with the bike and not just sitting in the saddle - helps alot - el

[Trevize1138]

i've been working on getting physical with the bike and not just sitting in the saddle - helps alot - el
Yeah! Get physical, baby! :)

It certainly does help to shift your weight around on an MTB, especially in corners just like you're saying.

Isn't it weird, too, how the slightest adjustments in PSI can make such a huge difference in handling? I even tried going lower in the front that usual, just under 40 psi. I'm still 55 psi in the back, though. That combination seems to work absolutely dandy. The rear wheel feels nice and quick and responsive because it's not all mushy and the front wheel sticks on the corners like it's made of glue. You get a little drift with the rear wheel on corners sometimes, but that's expected and beneficial ;)

[Crash]

You get a little drift with the rear wheel on corners sometimes, but that's expected and beneficial ;)
As long as you countersteer out of it!
Now, what is the definition of countersteering again....he he

[Trevize1138]

As long as you countersteer out of it!
Now, what is the definition of countersteering again....he he
How to countersteer:

1 - Kill a horse
2 - buy a bat
3 - whack dead horse repeatedly with bat
4 - continue to whack horse ad nauseum

[Crash]

How to countersteer:

1 - Kill a horse
2 - buy a bat
3 - whack dead horse repeatedly with bat
4 - continue to whack horse ad nauseum
Or just provide a link to the already dead horse........
http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10796&highlight=countersteer

[el gueche]

http://www.supermoto.co.uk/ countersteer? uh-huh - el

[iceskier]

Drift????? You mean skidding.... Should be really start beating that horse and bring up skidding?? Oopps I just did:scream:

[Tetreves]

Why not just save yourself the worry of whether your counter-steering, drifting, or skidding and walk through the sandy corner? While your at it you could build me a sandcastle.

Or just skip the whole biking thing and go for a nice hike instead!

:laugh:

[manual63]

Speaking of sandy corners...you can get plenty of practice at Leb doing this. Phillip crashed and skinned up his knee on a Sandy corner in the dream trail exit on the fast downhill part. Maybe he needs to read or re-read this section....:D

I hope your okay man, that was a nasty crash. I don't follow too close in that section, as I like to go really fast. As I was looking around the corner I saw Phillip on the ground and all the dust. I hit the brakes and slid about 50 - 75 feet just to stop in the sandy part.....which is all washboarded out from others having to do the same thing.

[stoneage]

Just watch the Mountain Cross and Dual Slalom aces.
Outside foot down and hard, weight on top of the handlebars to keep the wheel grounded, inside knee and shoulder pointed into the turn, and LOOK AROUND THE CORNER, not at it.

[Brick]

...you can get plenty of practice at Leb doing this. Phillip crashed and skinned up his knee on a Sandy corner in the dream trail exit on the fast downhill part.

He's not the only one that that's happened too recently....:hit:

Those breaking bumps are starting to get downright dangerous.

[manual63]

He's not the only one that that's happened too recently....:hit:

Those breaking bumps are starting to get downright dangerous.
The problem is that some of those corners are blind and you can't see how sharp the turn is until you get there. Riders that don't know the trail well, will hit the brakes right before the turn, which causes the washboard effect. That part of the trail is really fun once you know it. I take it at full speed and don't use the brakes much at all. If I do, I know when and where to brake. Now that it's getting super bumpy before some turns, it's harder for riders like me to go full out and I have to brake more too, causing the whole issue to escalate. I think some trail work is the only thing to solve the problem......then just stay on top of the maintainance of that section. It's a good and really fun section, so I wouldn't want it to change much.

[pwpatton]

I do 2 things when I'm tired. My balance gets out of whack and I stop thinking. You were puting up a mean pace and I was having fun trying to keep up but I was getting really fatigued. I usually just miss a turn and nail my handlebars on a tree when I get like that but I didn't and got all the way to the dream 1 down slope without fear of crashing. I had my nephew Peter trailing me which ofcourse makes me want to go faster and I wasn't even thinking (ya know, that thing I don't do really well when I'm tired) about how dusty the trail was. Well I took a sweeping left hander at a pretty high speed (a speed I'd done before) and I basically slid out. Now normally that's not too big of a deal cuz I do push it a bit on corners but at that speed I had a nice long way to go before I actually stopped sliding on my knee.

I would say lesson learned but that would be lying. I'll probably be a bit gun shy and take more notice when the conditions are super dry (that would have been a no brainer if it were tacky or even just dry) but I like pushing the limits. I paid with a bit of skin and pain but I love flying down that ending section as fast as I possibley can. I've never been caught up to in that section (when I wasn't being slowing by someone in front of me) I don't plan on it in the future... hehe.

But seriously, I did make a cardinal mistake. Not paying attention to the conditions is a problem. I had never seen it that dusty out there before. I'll be watching for that in the future...


Speaking of sandy corners...you can get plenty of practice at Leb doing this. Phillip crashed and skinned up his knee on a Sandy corner in the dream trail exit on the fast downhill part. Maybe he needs to read or re-read this section....:D

I hope your okay man, that was a nasty crash. I don't follow too close in that section, as I like to go really fast. As I was looking around the corner I saw Phillip on the ground and all the dust. I hit the brakes and slid about 50 - 75 feet just to stop in the sandy part.....which is all washboarded out from others having to do the same thing.

[Trevize1138]

I usually run 40 psi front, 50 psi rear. I settled on this more definitively recently when, for the heck of it, I tried going 50/50. On the very first loop, in the Beginner section, my front tire slid out on me and I skinned my knee. I took 10 psi out of the front tire and kept it that way. No more slide outs.

I like keeping the rear tire a little harder for two reasons: less rolling resistance and to ensure that it will be the first to slide out. That way, I get a little warning about slippery conditions while my front tire still has traction. You often use your rear tire's slide-out nature to help around corners, too.

Time to dig up an old thread now that the dry season is here and I'm no longer able to hug another rider's rear tire on the trails due to *cough cough* dust! Ack!

A year ago I wrote the post above. I was running that PSI with tire diameters about 2.0 or 2.1 in the front and 1.95 in the rear. Because of my proximity to the Theo Wirth trail and its more-twisty nature, I've become better at cornering. Also, I've been riding a lot on my SS full-rigid bike.

Because of that and some advice from Wheels on lowering PSI, I recently bought a pair of 2.2 diameter Bontrager tires (Revolt Super X (http://www.bontrager.com/Mountain/Wheelworks/Tires/5734.php) on the back and Jones ACX (http://www.bontrager.com/Mountain/Wheelworks/Tires/5729.php) on the front). I'm running them lower than 35 psi on both front and back and I'm still experimenting. I gotta tell ya, though, so far I'm really liking the bigger tire, lower PSI thing for cornering. It really helps in the sandy, loose stuff we've got everywhere now.

Back when it was raining all the time and you just had to wait 24 hours for primo, tacky conditions I could get away just fine with skinnier, harder wheels. But, now I'm really sold on the bigger, lower PSI thing. I think that 50 psi ideal I had for the rear was harkening way back to the days when I actually liked Murphy and I was trying to prevent pinch flats at 43 mph shooting down those big hills. The riding and the trails I do now is quite different, so it's about time I changed up my choice of tires!