MTB trails & Three Rivers Park District

[JayT]

Here's a topic for discussion: Which Three Rivers Park District park would you like to see trails (single track) developed? and why?

Not familiar with the Park District? In a nutshell Three Rivers Park District operates 20+ park facilities covering over 25,000 acres. All of this in the south, west, & north metro area.

For more see www.threeriversparkdistrict.org (http://www.threeriversparkdistrict.org/)


http://www.threeriversparkdistrict.org/images/parkdirmap020904.jpg

[homebrewbiker]

I think Elm Creek may be the best candidate because of its size. Lake Rebecca could also be nice (fix the current trail that has unrideable sections due to the mud) and Baker park also has a huge amount of potential because of the area and terrain. I guess that's 3

[Panman]

I would like to see Elm Creek Park's MTB trails expanded. There is so much room for trails and I've always seen good potential here. The tarrain is right and the space is there. Although I havn't visited all the other parks (only Elm Creek, Lake Rebecca, Baker, Crow Hasson (Another nice tarrain park but the horse people would fight..:()).. However, there are so many good MTB trails in the south metro that anything down there would just be another trail. If there were a nice trail up in the north metro it would get used much more IMO. That's my grep about MTB trail in the metro, there arn't any great ones up here! (Except Hillside)That and it's much closer to me which would be nice. :D If you need help with this issue I'd be glad to help, I like these parks. I wander if MORC could help with the trail building.?.?

[ryno lite]

I know there is a continued dialogue between MORC and 3 Rivers Park District about mtn bike trails in their parks. We're hoping someday that the priveledge to build in their great parks will be granted. The 3 parks that have been mentioned in the past have been Murphy, Rebecca and Elm Creek. I've always heard if it does happen that Murphy would be first followed by Rebecca and maybe Elm Creek. This is all rumor though. Who knows if and when it will happen and which parks would be included. I know Tim and Dale and others have been working very hard for a few years on this one and I hope it happens some day. They do a great job pitching our group and trails so I'm hopeful it will happen in my lifetime!

My vote would be Murphy! Plenty of untapped land back there. Actually having been to all 3, I'd say that Elm Creek, Rebecca and Murphy are all outstanding parks and it would be great to see all 3. Hate to be greedy, but I want all 3!

[huntforlife]

I would have to say Elm Creek. All they would nead to do is open up the stuff that's already there. The park is very acessible to the northern metro area, and its has lots of great land to expand on. The current "Mtb" trails are just bad.

[noise_is_life]

What about Baker park? I would be really nice to have some more options on the west side. I've always thought the terrain looked like it had potential out there.

[jonbodin]

Being a beginner and living in Plymouth, I would like to see Elm Creek because of the size of the park. The current trail is hard to follow (I got lost the first time out there and ended up on the hiking trails). I've been to Rebecca also and agree that it is too muddy even though I thought the trail was better than Elm Creek. In my opinion Elm Creek has too much of the trail on 'grass' rather than a single track. But I do agree any of the parks would be great because of the lack of trails in the NW suburbs for beginner/intermediates.

[rowland]

i would love to see elm creek, living so close by;) i don't know how i feel about opening the illegal trails that are there. they were not laid out for sustainability and with legal public use they would be a rutted, rooty, sandy eroded mess in no time. i guess i do know how i feel:cool:

i would love to see elm creek developed!

[TML]

Knowing that the Murphy project is already partly underway, my first vote would be for Elm Creek. It's a big park with some great terrain and it's in the trail forsaken north metro.

[Daddy X]

I would have to vote for Murphy. First off I can ride there from my house, and is seems like there is a ton of land there with great potential for amazing singletrack.

[homebrewbiker]

i would love to see elm creek, living so close by;) i don't know how i feel about opening the illegal trails that are there. they were not laid out for sustainability and with legal public use they would be a rutted, rooty, sandy eroded mess in no time. i guess i do know how i feel:cool:

i would love to see elm creek developed!
If Elm Creek were developed there would be sustainable trail laid down. That is what is happening at Wirth anyway and I would envision something similar. But I am just a newbie at this trail development stuff.

[tnmanderson]

I would say Baker or Rebbeca as there is nothing in the west metro.

[Rocky Mountain]

Where are the HILLS at? That is where the fun is even if it means climbing a few. Hyland Lake Park in Bloomington would get my vote.

There used to be mtn bike trails there along with weekly time trials many years ago but not it lays dormant.

[ryno lite]

Being a beginner and living in Plymouth, I would like to see Elm Creek because of the size of the park. The current trail is hard to follow (I got lost the first time out there and ended up on the hiking trails). I've been to Rebecca also and agree that it is too muddy even though I thought the trail was better than Elm Creek. In my opinion Elm Creek has too much of the trail on 'grass' rather than a single track. But I do agree any of the parks would be great because of the lack of trails in the NW suburbs for beginner/intermediates.
I used to ride Rebecca once in awhile and it wasn't muddy if you let it dry. It is bad during wet times but most of it dries nicely. If a proper trail was built there, it would not have a wetness problem. I've heard the too muddy thing about Rebecca and I think this happens cause people ride it too quickly during wet periods. The trail also was brought through a swampy stretch and they should have put some boardwalks in. Most of Minnesota is one big swamp, but if we build the trails right in the right spots, they should work. Rebecca also has some great open scenery and would make for a scenic ride. We better work in all 3! I think they all would be great!

[smeulebroe]

I would like to see Murphy developed. I think it would help take the high usage off of Lebanon. Plus, MORC's foot is already there, so why not make that the crown jewel trail project for 3 rivers to see. And, I'm moving to that side of the world and would love to be a part of the official trail crew for Murphy. Now if you would have asked me before I knew I was moving I would say Rebecca. And to be honest I would love to see some kind of single track in all of their parks :etard:

[JayT]

Thanks! it's great to read all of your ideas.

I'd like to get a really good cross section of opinion - so keep 'em coming.

JayT

[Panman]

Thanks! it's great to read all of your ideas.

I'd like to get a really good cross section of opinion - so keep 'em coming.

JayT
Are you apart of some kind of comittee or something? If so I'd be happy to help.

[pwpatton]

Years ago I used to ride Elm Creek all the time with a friend that lives on the park boundary. We would ride right in from his house and we quicky got bored of the double track and started our own little loop. The double track trail they have cut right now is not very fun for mountain biking and not very sustainable. It would be great to see an extensive single track mtb trail open up there. There is plenty of good terrain. Just need to lay it out.

[Tim Wegner]

Personally I would like to see Muphy started in the next 18 months. It has great terrain and a history of rider use. The chunk of land that has been discussed is between 125-200 acres. With the terrain and that much land we could build a tremendous trail system that would more than likely make Lebanon seem second rate(imagine that)

Also Murphy and the Southern area has a tremendous group of experienced volunteers that could become involved in trail finishing. Not that the riders in the Northern suburbs aren't involved it is just that they have to drive a lot further to do trail work at this time. I believe that Elm Creek should be the next one on our list for trail development.

Close proximity to a population of riders hungry for new trails would help move the building process along nicely. Rebecca should become a long term process, it is a long drive out there and a dedicated group of trail volunteers might be difficult to develop. Just my humble opinion. My comments are not meant to upset anyone of show disrespect for riders fromdifferent areas of the metro area.
TW

[nigel]

Personally I would like to see Muphy started in the next 18 months. It has great terrain and a history of rider use. The chunk of land that has been discussed is between 125-200 acres. With the terrain and that much land we could build a tremendous trail system that would more than likely make Lebanon seem second rate(imagine that)

Also Murphy and the Southern area has a tremendous group of experienced volunteers that could become involved in trail finishing. Not that the riders in the Northern suburbs aren't involved it is just that they have to drive a lot further to do trail work at this time. I believe that Elm Creek should be the next one on our list for trail development.

Close proximity to a population of riders hungry for new trails would help move the building process along nicely. Rebecca should become a long term process, it is a long drive out there and a dedicated group of trail volunteers might be difficult to develop. Just my humble opinion. My comments are not meant to upset anyone of show disrespect for riders fromdifferent areas of the metro area.
TW
How would the new Murphy trails hold up to the "wet" that it gets there? Would the trails only be open such a short season as they are now or is it in a different area? Just curious, Murphy is great and would be even better with new trails but i wish it was not so wet and had a longer season.

Douglas

[thebionicman]

I would imagine that there would be sustainable trails built at Murphy, not just using ski trails that can wash away. There is a lot of terrain that could be built on. Would be a great area for trails.

[JayT]

Erosion is one reason for the short season at Murphy Harehan. The other, and lesser known reason is birds! What most people don't know is Murphy Hanrehan is a bird sanctuary. It's a breeding area for many varieties of Warblers that are not very common. The August 1st start date at Murphy Hanrehan is to accommodate their breeding season.

How many knew that? I didn't. It's something I learned last year during IMBA's Hot Spots trail school at Murphy Hanrehan.

[ryno lite]

Whether it be erosion or birds, the chunk of land that we could potentially get would be able to be used for a whole season from what I've heard. Yes there are wetness problems there, but there could be wetness problems in any MN park if trails aren't built properly and in the right areas. MN has a lot of water sitting in our many low spots! Anyway Leb could have more wetness problems if it had not been built properly. We could have one heck of a trail system at Murph if we are granted the oppurtunity. I know I'd be there to volunteer! It sure would be exciting!

[pwpatton]

So many opportunities in the Metro right now, What a great time. The only better time will be once their built and I can ride them all :)

So Tim, "better than Leb"? Does that mean it will have an XXX loop? And is that something you ride or just stop to gawk at :)

[Tim Wegner]

Great discussion topics, I too had found out about the bird thing at Murphy at last years IMBA Hotspots program. In our favor is the fact that the nesting bird sites have been identified by ThreeRivers Parks District. I have discussed the bird areas with 3RPD and we are confident that if we are given permission to redesign the trails we will be able easily avoid the areas that the birds prefer for nesting.

We would like the trails to be open for the entire riding season. It costs MORC the same to build a tral that is open for 5-6 months as it does to build a trail that is only open for 1 1/2 months. So for a ROI it makes much more sense to build a trail that is open the entire season. The longer season is also in the best interest of 3RPD--more visitors, fewer trail poaching problems.

As far as water concerns, I walked the area last fall and there is a tremendous variety of topography in this park that would lend itself to building sustainable trails that would stay as dry as the trails at Lebanon. (two weeks ago excluded)

MORC and IMBA have planned a trail school for this fall. We are planning to have the school on October 14,15,16&17th. We will be focusing our efforts on the 14th & 15th on 3RPD and the 16th & 17th on a local ski area where MORC hold its 24 hour race each fall. Our goal is to do some trail design training/layout at Murphy (if we get permission) and to improve the race course with a goal of keeping the trail open at the ski resort all season loing. Maybe we could convince the owner of the ski hill to allow some freeride type trails to be built.

Everything that I have written above this line, except the IMBA school info, is dependent on 3RPD giving us permission to do work on the property they manage. Please do not contact them discussing anything about this forums topic. You will have to trust that the leaders of MORC and IMBA are working very hard to move this process along and are diligently meeting with not only the leaders of 3RPD but with other land managers to ensure that we will continue to gain access to other park areas at 3RPD as well as other parks district as well. We have met with DNR representatives as well to begin discussing trails in some of the state parks. Again this is very preliminary and could become reality or just a dream. Let MORC and IMBA which are the leading advocacy groups in Minnesota do what you want us to do and that is to be a focused, directed group working hard to do what our members want us to accomplish, gain access, build trails and maintain trails.

Thanks for everyones interest and comments. I am posting this info just to let everyone know that IMBA and MORC are working hard to gain access and build relationships with the land managers.

e-mail me if you have questions: twegner50@yahoo.com

Thanks,
TW

[homebrewbiker]

Close proximity to a population of riders hungry for new trails would help move the building process along nicely. Rebecca should become a long term process, it is a long drive out there and a dedicated group of trail volunteers might be difficult to develop. Just my humble opinion. My comments are not meant to upset anyone of show disrespect for riders fromdifferent areas of the metro area.
TW
Considering the fact that there is nothing out that way now I think you could get a solid contingent of riders in the Plymouth area willing to work out there. If the thought is that it is too far then maybe Baker would be better. For those who don't think there are any hills there, I would respectfully disagree. Having skiid there, there is a lot of up and down. I for one would gladly volunteer to help and/or be part of a committe ...:crazy2:

[noise_is_life]

Considering the fact that there is nothing out that way now I think you could get a solid contingent of riders in the Plymouth area willing to work out there. If the thought is that it is too far then maybe Baker would be better. For those who don't think there are any hills there, I would respectfully disagree. Having skiid there, there is a lot of up and down. I for one would gladly volunteer to help and/or be part of a committe ...:crazy2:
Well considering I currently drive 30-45 minutes through traffic to get to Leb or Harmon Park trailwork I don't think it would be too big of a deal to get out to Rebecca or Baker for trailwork.

The south metro certainly has no corner on dedicated mountain bikers considering we routinely have over 20 people at Theo trailwork and Harmon has to struggle to get 10.

[yetirider]

Considering the fact that there is nothing out that way now I think you could get a solid contingent of riders in the Plymouth area willing to work out there. If the thought is that it is too far then maybe Baker would be better. For those who don't think there are any hills there, I would respectfully disagree. Having skiid there, there is a lot of up and down. I for one would gladly volunteer to help and/or be part of a committe ...:crazy2:
I agree completely. I think that there is an inherent support of the trails by people that are close to them. Unfortunately, I have only made 6 trails sessions as a result of my location (Minnetrista), but I also use the trails much less. If there were trail nights at Baker (agree that this has great potential) I doubt a week would go by where I would miss it. It is not that I want to support something close to me and not support things further away, it is just a situation of logistics.

I would assume that it is similar for others.

[jonbodin]

I'd be more than happy to help out with any of the trails in the NW if needed (even though I'm a beginner!).
:banana:

[Don Youngdahl]

Considering that Murphy-Hanrahan already has considerable momentum, that should be the first place to start with Three Rivers, but Elm Creek should definitely be next. I would hope that the trails at Murphy won't have to be complete or nearly complete before starting at Elm Creek.

I also think Three Rivers and MORC should give some thought to local "neighborhood parks" with 2-3 miles of trail, that many riders would ride their bikes to rather than commuting. These would help take the pressure off of the "destination trails", lessen traffic congestion, and save gas if one just wants a short ride. A good place to consider would be the old Salvation Army Camp at Silver Lake Road and Co. Road E in St. Anthony/New Brighton. This would help releive the severe dearth of legal single track in the north metro area. Or how about French Park in Plymouth?

Don Youngdahl

[noise_is_life]

It's not a Three Rivers Park but I still would like to make something happen at Lone Lake Park in Minnetonka someday. There's not a ton of trail there, but I enjoyed riding in there before they restricted it.

[SprocketHead]

Elm Creek!!! We could have some dynomite trails out there!

[Tim Wegner]

Don has hit it right on the head! We have considerable momentum for Murphy at this time. That does not mean that we are insensitive to the need to begin negotiating for trails in other parts of the metro. Murphy would take 3 years to complete but that does not mean we could not work in other areas as well. The only thing that would hold us back(aside from getting permission from land managers)from working in other areas is $$$$$.

That is one reason that memeberships in MORC are so important. Your membership in MORC provides 2 things: 1. Cash for trail construction, trail schools etc. 2. Numbers of members in your orgainzation speaks volumns to politicians. So if you are not a member yet, what is holding you back?? Are all of your riding buddies members of MORC??? Push them to join. Last week I was at the trail head at Lebanon and handed out about 40-50 membership applications to people that are not currently members. It will be interesting how many of those that said they would join will actually take the step and send the money and member info in to MORC. Here is my thought--I spend more on tires each year than my membership to MORC and I bet I am not alone on that one. Many of you are on trail construction committees at various trails around the Metro---Thank You, Thank You!! Many of you have never dug in the dirt on a MORC trail, some of you do not have the time, some don't know how to connect with the trail crews. Those of you that do not have the time or may not want to work on the trails I challenge you to send more than the $20 memebership to MORC. I believe that anything over the $20 is tax deductable.

As I always say at the trail head when I hand out membership applications. "We will spend your $20 very wisely, $5.00 goes for socks, $14.90 goes for trail projects and construction and $.10 goes for beer for Tim!!"
TW

[homebrewbiker]

It's not a Three Rivers Park but I still would like to make something happen at Lone Lake Park in Minnetonka someday. There's not a ton of trail there, but I enjoyed riding in there before they restricted it.Absolutely. I have played frisbee golf there admiring one hill that looks like it would be a lot of fun for biking (I tend to get a lot of time to admire the scenery while looking for my frisbee)!

It used to be a great place to play cause you could almost go across the street to Sherlock's Home for a nice pint afterwards too!:banana:

[rockclimberguy]

Does anyone know whether biking is allowed on any of the trails in French Park? There is an access point that has no sign, but all the trails have difficulty indicators that look like biking signs. There seem to be many great trails albeit short ones, but lots of short climbs and overall great scenery. I don't want to bike there though if it's not allowed.

[ostertoaster85]

No, I am pretty sure that mountain biking is not allowed at French Park. There is a series of cyclocross races, however, held there during the fall under a special permit, so it would be worthwhile to stay on good terms with the landmanager so that they can get the permit for the cyclocross races.

At least, that's how I understand it, but I haven't heard anything about it since last Autumn. Perhaps this cyclocross series can convince the land manager that bikes should be on these trails.

[homebrewbiker]

Does anyone know whether biking is allowed on any of the trails in French Park? There is an access point that has no sign, but all the trails have difficulty indicators that look like biking signs. There seem to be many great trails albeit short ones, but lots of short climbs and overall great scenery. I don't want to bike there though if it's not allowed.
The only parks that allow mountain biking are Lake Rebecca, Elm Creek and Murphy and ONLY on trails designated as Mountain Biking Trails. The signs you see are for Cross Country Skiing. That is my understanding at least. I know MORC has been working with the parks, so it is probably best to stay off the trails except where designated. The paved paths are OK for biking but not very much fun on a mountain bike.

[Tetreves]

The only parks that allow mountain biking are Lake Rebecca, Elm Creek and Murphy and ONLY on trails designated as Mountain Biking Trails. The signs you see are for Cross Country Skiing. That is my understanding at least. I know MORC has been working with the parks, so it is probably best to stay off the trails except where designated. The paved paths are OK for biking but not very much fun on a mountain bike.
French park is a very pretty park. I just got married there up on top of the hill. I'm not sure how much land is available there, but I think it has some nice terrain that would make for a good singletrack trail.

Being close to the cities, it would hold an appeal for mountain bikers that lived in the inner ring of suburbs and minneapolis to go there rather than some of the "over-used" parks.

[SickBoy]

I'd say the prospect of trails at French would be iffy (from my perspective).

As far as the XC ski trails, I am surprised that even the cyclocross training series got permission to use those. The ski trails there are held very dear to many people's hearts and it shows that 3RPD puts a lot of work into them, as well groomed as they are during the winter. Allowing general bike traffic.... nah...

Otherwise, some singletrack -could- be a possibility. The best place I think it could be, would be back on the Skyline/Challenge Hill areas. But even there... it's an extremely small amount of space that's criscrossed with a lot of ski trails that we'd ideally like to stay off of, as well as being surrounded by low swampy areas. Combine that with the "Creative Play Center" at French, and it's just a place I like to avoid altogether during the summer (due to the types of people there).

I would think Elm Creek to be a much, much better candidate for some serious singletrack. Don's really right about the north metro - we need more singletrack up that way. I'm excited about -any- new trails... but it's hard to be truly pumped about Salem Hills/Murphy/Lebanon/Terrace/River Bottoms/Farm/Super Farm.

(Notice a pattern?)

[homebrewbiker]

As far as I know these trails are not legal to ride on. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time you may get a "gift" from the park police. There is a sanctioned MTB trail (or at least there used to be) and it is not in that area of the park, it is near the Ski chalet, which is now closed for construction.

[JayT]

Currently there is no single-track at Elm Creek that is open for mountain bikes. If you are on trail that is not specifically designated for mtb use, you can be ticketed. Three Rivers Park District does have it's own police department and the white vehicles that say "police" are real police.

[mcarples]

I too would love to see some trails at Lone Lake in Minnetonka. I used to ride there and there were some great technical trails (at least the used to seem technical when I was a beginner). The switchbacks were great and there was good vertical change for such a small area.

[h2oskierc]

I'd like to see something happen at Elm Creek. It has so many facilities, and lots of room for mtb trails. I am sure that a lot of help could be generated there.

[rowland]

I'd like to see something happen at Elm Creek. It has so many facilities, and lots of room for mtb trails. I am sure that a lot of help could be generated there.

it's on the list, after murphy.

i, for one, am chompin' at the bit to tear into it!!!

[Panman]

it's on the list, after murphy.

i, for one, am chompin' at the bit to tear into it!!!
Same here, I can't wait.

[jonbodin]

I would love it too living in Plymouth!!!! :)

[Tim Wegner]

Yes Elm Creek is on the list of places that Three Rivers would like to have some mountain bike trails. I think we will have to get significant work done at Murphy before they will give us the go ahead to move on to Elm Creek though.

2 major things will be holding us back: Cash and time/manpower. Cash will be needed to corner any grant money and time that is now going to be devoted to Murphy will have to be freed up to move on to Elm Creek.

I believe it will happen but don't have a time line right now. Murphy MUST be completed 3 years from this October so we will need to hit that one hard in order to get the work done on time. Lebanon took us 3 years to complete and we only built 8 miles there we are looking to build 12+ miles at Murphy in the same time frame.

Tim Wegner

[rowland]

i don't think labor would be an issue at elm creek. the northern suburbs are lacking in trails and i think people would come out of the woodwork to get more trails up here.

hell, i've driven several time to work at lebanon, and my house borders on elm creek. i might just show up for trail work every now and then:)

[Trevize1138]

Lebanon took us 3 years to complete and we only built 8 miles there we are looking to build 12+ miles at Murphy in the same time frame.

We built 4.4 miles at Theo in 13 months nearly all by hand: just one Dingo-cut section.

12+ miles in three years? Easy! :)

[Tim Wegner]

One thing I learned from years of building trails is that you can't take the time it takes to build a trail in one area and apply it to another area.

Almost none of the trail at Theo has a significant side slope so the bench is not cut as deep into the side hill. The area that will have the most mileage (8) has a side slope of 70%+ slope. the uphill cut will usually be a minimum of 24-30 inches deep. That results in a lot of dirt to be moved by the machines as well as the trail finish crews.

3 years is still an aggresive schedule to finish Murphy. As we have learned this year---if we have too many projects going on we don't get the large numbers turning out to help with trail construction. Look at Salem Hills, Terrace, River Bottoms and Battle Creek. This has been a difficult year to get people out to do the finish work on the trails. Even Theo had difficulty getting people out in large numbers and as learned at Theo if you work your crews that hard they suffer severe burnout and some will even lose interest.

So I stand by my estimate of 3 years to finish Murphy. Hopefull many will take up the challenge and prove me wrong!!!!
TW