skidding

[qheuie]

<gripe>
so there we are, riding at Lebanon the other day. we stop to chit chat near the X entrance and about 5 people ride by, clear the first log pile, skid around the first corner, then the second. shortly thereafter, 3 kids on BMX bikes ride by, and lay down hella skids, like into the leaves, around the first 2 turns. do these people really think skidding is useful or are they just going too fast, or are they just ignorant?
not sure why, but when people skid it really bugs me. if i accidentally skid, i actually feel bad, like i should go back and fix the dirt i smeared up. maybe put a dirt band aid on it or something.
</gripe>

[Homebrew]

Skidding is a sign of poor riding skills. I hate seeing those marks as much as gas station water bottles after every bump and hill.

[Panman]

shortly thereafter, 3 kids on BMX bikes ride by, and lay down hella skids, like into the leaves, around the first 2 turns.
I've seen those kids before. They don't even were helmets. I don't know how they get through the entire trail with those bikes...

I also don't like it when I skid, bugs me.

[zerpy]

I skid occasionally (I must be a poor rider) but definately not intentionally. It is usually the result of taking a corner too fast and usually will happen when we've had conditions change from the norm (too dry or dusty when I'm used to more traction with normal moristure levels). I think the occasional skid is going to happen and is part of normal wear and tear, but when you have people intentionally skidding all the time it's going to cause a lot of unnecessary wear and tear. Of course you can tell when people are doing it on purpose, the one's who accidentally skid practially jump out of their skin when they have visions of high siding and face planting on the side of the trail.

[Brick]

<gripe>
5 people ride by, clear the first log pile, skid around the first corner, then the second. shortly thereafter, 3 kids on BMX bikes ride by, and lay down hella skids, like into the leaves, around the first 2 turns. do these people really think skidding is useful or are they just going too fast, or are they just ignorant?

</gripe>
I vote for ignorant......as a kid, I used to think skidding was fun--untill my folks started me pay for replacement tires. :crazy2:

[Homebrew]

Everybody skids time to time, I ment the person entering every turn to fast and then locking up their brakes. No offense ment zerpy.

[noise_is_life]

I've seen those kids before. They don't even were helmets. I don't know how they get through the entire trail with those bikes...

I also don't like it when I skid, bugs me.
Not sure if it's the same kids, but there were 3 riding the XX last summer when we were doing trail work. One of them was catching major air of the tabletop. The kept walking off trail right in front of us so they could do the tabletop again (which is why we added the stairs), kids will be kids.

[noise_is_life]

I skid occasionally (I must be a poor rider) but definately not intentionally. It is usually the result of taking a corner too fast and usually will happen when we've had conditions change from the norm (too dry or dusty when I'm used to more traction with normal moristure levels). I think the occasional skid is going to happen and is part of normal wear and tear, but when you have people intentionally skidding all the time it's going to cause a lot of unnecessary wear and tear. Of course you can tell when people are doing it on purpose, the one's who accidentally skid practially jump out of their skin when they have visions of high siding and face planting on the side of the trail.
In my experience it is somewhat a function of mass also. Big guys will tend to hit downhill corners a little faster, and there is alot more to get around the corner.

That's no excuse though, I can usually keep it under control with an occasional (rare) small skid when I get a little too speed happy.

[zerpy]

Everybody skids time to time, I ment the person entering every turn to fast and then locking up their brakes. No offense ment zerpy.
None was taken, now that I read my post I sounded like a dick there, didn't mean that!:crazy: It was kind of toung-in-cheek, but I frequently take turns too hard and I skid or my tire folds under and I high side, etc...

I skidded on a motorcycle this weekend too! I was taking a turn too fast and scraped the foot peg on the ground, I've done it before but it really startled me this time and I reflexively grabbed the front brake real hard (dumb thing to do) needless to say the front wheel skidded and cranked over, the rear wheel came off the ground and the bike started to swing to the side as it uprighted and I thought I was going to be thrown. I was having visions of hitting the pavement face first at 40MPH. Somehow I released the front brake and the bike righted itself and I hung on, luckily, and everything ended well. :shocked:

[fisherbikefreak]

I skidded on a motorcycle this weekend too! :shocked:[/QUOTE]
That really could have hurt. Time for a MSF Basic Rider Course? I took mine last week! Braking was my weakest part. Several times on the emergency braking in a corner I did the same thing that you did (only at 15 mph not 40!). I learned a lot in the class despite being an avid two wheeler with motor or without. Scored 100% on the skills test at the end of the class. :cool:

Trish Van Pilsum from Fox 9 is doing an investigative piece on motorcycle safety. She also took the course. Watch the tube for announcements on when it will air (should be first or second week of May).

P.S. Brake then turn, doing the opposite it just plain ugly! Glad to hear you made it out alright.

[zerpy]

That really could have hurt. Time for a MSF Basic Rider Course? I took mine last week! Braking was my weakest part. Several times on the emergency braking in a corner I did the same thing that you did (only at 15 mph not 40!). I learned a lot in the class despite being an avid two wheeler with motor or without. Scored 100% on the skills test at the end of the class. :cool:
Trish Van Pilsum from Fox 9 is doing an investigative piece on motorcycle safety. She also took the course. Watch the tube for announcements on when it will air (should be first or second week of May).

P.S. Brake then turn, doing the opposite it just plain ugly! Glad to hear you made it out alright.[/QUOTE]Where do you think I did it at? It was practice time before my skills test at the minnesota motorcycle safety course:) Actually, took mine last week but 3/4 way through the test it was canceled due to some idiot calling in and setting off the sirens in St. Paul (there was nothing even remotely threatening in the county at that time). So we took the skills test yesterday. I was doing high speed turns and just kept getting faster and faster until the foot peg scraped I think that was about as fast as I could get that 125 to go with me on it, at least on flat pavement. Had that throttle all the way open:)

Yes of course I know that you brake before the turn and straighten the bike if you do have to to brake. It was one of those reflex reactions due to having the living crap scared out of me by the bike scraping the ground. I guess it didn't feel like I was leaning that much, but then again you can really lay a mountain bike down before anything hits the ground and that's what I'm used to. BTW: I did get 100% on the skills test as well, the only one in my class. Braking was my weakest part too, I was always forgetting to shift and I would anticipate on the quick stop. Seemed to take forever before I would remember to do the downshift while braking. Before that little incident, I had never locked the front wheel before (well, not on a motorcycle anyway), but I had seen it done. Prob saw 3 bikes get dumped because of people locking the front wheel on the quick stop.

[qheuie]

wow.. great response to the thread. i am almost certain that the next group ride i go on i will accidetntally skid in every turn, murphy will make me look like an ass! :crazy2:

Good job on taking the MSF guys. I took it about 2.5 years ago. Learned A LOT. I can say that i have never locked the front wheel on the moto, but i have had enough incidents locking the rear that i know how weird it feels when the bike gets a little squirrely.
What kinds of cycles do you ride? I ride a 2001 Kawasaki zr-7s. We should have a group motorcycle ride sometime.

Josh

[fisherbikefreak]

Only have non-moto two-wheeler. Maybe next year I'll be able to buy a motorized! Weekends are great for mtb rides though. Just drop me a line.

[zerpy]

wow.. great response to the thread. i am almost certain that the next group ride i go on i will accidetntally skid in every turn, murphy will make me look like an ass! :crazy2:

Good job on taking the MSF guys. I took it about 2.5 years ago. Learned A LOT. I can say that i have never locked the front wheel on the moto, but i have had enough incidents locking the rear that i know how weird it feels when the bike gets a little squirrely.
What kinds of cycles do you ride? I ride a 2001 Kawasaki zr-7s. We should have a group motorcycle ride sometime.

Josh
I don't have one at the moment :cryin: actually might pick something cheap up this summer (sub $1000) just to have something to ride. But I'm hoping to get a Buell XB9S in the next year or so, I just don't want to have another loan out at the moment.

[jitterjepp]

<gripe>
so there we are, riding at Lebanon the other day. we stop to chit chat near the X entrance and about 5 people ride by, clear the first log pile, skid around the first corner, then the second. shortly thereafter, 3 kids on BMX bikes ride by, and lay down hella skids, like into the leaves, around the first 2 turns. do these people really think skidding is useful or are they just going too fast, or are they just ignorant?
not sure why, but when people skid it really bugs me. if i accidentally skid, i actually feel bad, like i should go back and fix the dirt i smeared up. maybe put a dirt band aid on it or something.
</gripe> I skid all the time and I bet I’m faster than some of you guys talking here and also a bit older. Maybe someone should follow you guys around and point out your riding deficiencies I’ll bet I could come up with a few. Sitting here on the Internet picking on some kids? What’s up with that? At least they are getting out and riding instead of sitting in front of the television getting fat.

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I think it’s funny that one would be so bugged about it that they would remember it out of all the things one encounters in the day and bring it here.

[rowland]

Skidding around turns is like dragging a hoe behind your bike. A little bit doesn't seem to hurt, but it has an accumulative effect.
Please try not too.
jason

[fisherbikefreak]

When I was a teenager or younger I didn't give a hoot on how I impacted the environment -- I was out to have fun. Over time I have learned how important it is to not hurt our playground.

I don't think the people in this forum are trying to pick on kids. We are glad that they are interested in cycling, however, they need to be taught how to respect such a great place to enjoy our sport so that it may survive.

[jitterjepp]

When I was a teenager or younger I didn't give a hoot on how I impacted the environment -- I was out to have fun. Over time I have learned how important it is to not hurt our playground.

I don't think the people in this forum are trying to pick on kids. We are glad that they are interested in cycling, however, they need to be taught how to respect such a great place to enjoy our sport so that it may survive.
Ok if thats the case tell them on the trail. I don't think they are going to hear you here.

[manual63]

I won the longest skid contest at the One on One partly last fall. Am I bad now because I skid?

Actually, I like disc brakes because you can modulate them better. Also using a lot more front brake, it's a practice technique thing, and less rear will lower skidding.

Now back to the longest skid. A smaller bike works best, like a BMX bike. Then just start haulin' as fast as you can. The trick is that when you get to the lock up line, have all you weight forward (I practically sit on the top tube behind the stem). This makes the rear wheel really light, thus not slowing you down much (it's a physics thing). Now if you can just control your bike for a few hundred feet.....you'll do okay!

[qheuie]

like Brick, i used to skid my freestyle bike until the tires would pop... until i had to start paying to replace them. :p
i wasn't trying to attack anyone, just trying to understand why some people do the things they do. maybe next time i will just ask them :)

josh

[Trevize1138]

The only skid-related damage I've seen at places like Lebanon are the ones that cause the washboard effect down a couple hills. This is, of course, due to someone simply locking up the rear brake and skidding that tire all the way down a fairly straight hill.

Part of the blame for this happening does reside in trail design, hence one of the re-routes on the intermediate loop. The other part of the blame resides with less-experienced riders who don't know how to control their bike very well down hills. However, you'll always have less-experienced bikers on the trail. In fact, you should be glad for the less-experienced bikers because they're the future of the sport, hopefully one day to become more-experienced bikers and grow our numbers ;).

As for skidding around corners, I really haven't seen any evidence of trail damage on corners due to excessive skidding. It wasn't until early last year that I finally got out of my habit of skidding around a few particular corners at Leb, in fact. One of those corners is actually gone now thanks to the sweet new Dream trail. But, I eventually figured out how to take these corners faster if both tires were rolling and I was more primed to pedal out of them, so I stopped skidding.

[gopherhockey]

As for skidding around corners, I really haven't seen any evidence of trail damage on corners due to excessive skidding. It wasn't until early last year that I finally got out of my habit of skidding around a few particular corners at Leb, in fact. One of those corners is actually gone now thanks to the sweet new Dream trail. But, I eventually figured out how to take these corners faster if both tires were rolling and I was more primed to pedal out of them, so I stopped skidding.
I think someone mentioned it but you are right, many spots don't really show immediate harm by skids, but I think over time it does deterorate the trail. Uncovers roots, creates situations where the rain won't just sheet off but can pool up and run down the tire track left by the skid, which speeds up erosion.

It is very true that the most damage happens on downhill sections where riders build up speed. Some is trail design as you say, and other is the fact that no matter what we do on the trail there are people who seem to want to fly as fast as they can even when they don't know whats coming up.

If it weren't for skidding we could probably get by with even more fast downhill sections. The way it is there are a few at Lebanon that might even have to be removed due to constant breakdown of the trail. Oh well, keeps us with something to do ;)

[bakkeb]

How can anyone deprive themselves of the enjoyment of skidding around the two banked curves on the XX loop? Everywhere else, I don't understand skidding. I agree with Shad when he mentioned the proper use of your disc brakes and using the front brake more than the rear. Something more mountain bikers should learn.:etard:

[Tim Wegner]

After riding at Lebanon today(first time since the double angioplasty) I do not understand the people that skid their tires. Since Dale and I do most of the trail design it seems it is expected that the trail when built will stand up to anything. Look at it this way, we design a trail that will be fun to ride, we put fast downhill sections in to make riders happy, we put technical sections in to add challenge etc.

So, when we come up on a section that is being destroyed by a "dumbass" skidding his tires, we look at each other and decide that we can't do the trail like that anymore. Consequently it is necessary to dumb down the features on the trail. Slower downhills, more gradual turns, fewer challenges. Even the expert trail is beginning to show damage from skidding. Howcome I can ride the entire trail system and not skid?? I know I don't ride as fast as some of you (old fart I am) today I rode everything in the park without dabbing(face plants do not count as a dab). So maybe it is not about seeing how fast you can go in the park. Any "dumbass" can go fast and skid into a turn, a skilled rider should be able to control his bike at all times.

So you as a rider decide. Do you want exciting trails with challenges and some sections that you can't ride the first time or do you want a dumbed down version of what might be built. Also eroded trails speak volumes to those that we do not want any more mountain bike trails in the Metro area. When an area is damaged by skidding it is also diffucult to take a land manager out and show him the trail design and utilization. I believe that Dale and I design and build the best trail with the most challenge that land managers will allow, it is up to riders to step up to the plate and ride in manner that will preserve the trails for the future.

Any "dumbass" can skid their rear tire--a skilled rider takes pride in never skidding their tire! Which one are YOU??

TW

[gopherhockey]

Just to add to this, I noticed today a lot of tire marks going off the edge of the trail - especially in the X loop.

This, combined with the skids, makes me think people are riding way out of control out there. Either these people are new and think they need to blast through the trail their first time through regardless of what might be coming up, or they are simply not advanced enough to control their bikes. Either way it just donesn't make sense.

I mean... I have from time to time dipped off the trail slightly or even biffed here or there. But the amount that I see makes me think its not just random mistakes. Even when riding in a pack pushing each other to the limits I've not seen people find the need to skid or to ride so fast that they miss a corner.

I don't think these are beginner riders doing this, I think it is advanced level riders that just don't know better.

I would hate to see the trails get flattened out due to this type of abuse, but as Tim mentioned there are parts that are starting to show wear. These are places I consider fun and would like to see stay... sections I could see people complain about if they are flattened out.

Lebanon is tough because the sheer number of riders that hit the trail each day is probably above average for a trail its size. I think the wear we see each year at Lebanon is many times that of other trails in the area or on average in the nation. Still very well designed and sustainable, but it forces us to bring topics like this up. Even with all the riders its probably a very small percentage doing the majority of the wear and tear.

Maybe we need to have patrol members sit at common skid points and do some rider education on the trail... I dunno.

I want to get out there and build new trails, not fix existing ones due to ridier stupidity. I think I'm preaching the the choir though...

[J2]

Part of the blame for this happening does reside in trail design
Agreed... I suggest trailbuilders take this into account when planning/designing/routing new trails. I would rather flow up and around a berm than skid, wouldn't you?

[jitterjepp]

I got some negative rep points because of my post. First off I never said I didn't "give a hoot" about the trail. I said I skid all the time. A bunch of other people said they skid as well. I think I counted about six total. They said they try not to but in my book you do or you don't. Do the person’s feelings change the fact that they are a skidder and they have not stopped doing it? I highly doubt you never skid either. In fact I’ll go as far as saying everyone here skids. I’ve been out on the trails. I’ve seen people ride.



You’ve got some serious traffic out at Lebanon. That means you are going to have some serious maintenance. It’s like vacuuming the halls in the IDS center compared to the ones in your house.


My post here was about picking on some kids, reinventing the wheel of rock-n-roll evil with kids and bikes and pointing out their so called deficiencies. To come here on the Internet, diss them, their bikes, suggest they may be "ignorant" (ya kids love being called ignorant go ask one. It's not a word that sounds cool to a kid.) And now you can add to the list "*dumbass*" (though this was not specifically directed at the kids). Wow! That’s a harsh one. I usually get my entire post edited out for saying things like that!
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Would you say “hey kid how do you make it through the trail on that bike?” or “hey kid I think you may be ignorant because you are skidding” or “hey buddy are you a “*dumbass*”? I noticed you are skidding” Think about it.
Don't show me a turd and when I complain paint it red, tell me it’s an apple and give me a bad rep.
I never said I skidded on purpose. My rides are also usually around twenty miles or more. A few skids a day over twenty miles are not a big deal. If I did see someone skidding around every corner I would say something when I saw it happening in a much more tactful way than you guys are doing here. I wouldn’t say anything about their bikes, I wouldn’t call them ignorant or a “*dumbass*”.


And I got the bad rep points? What’s up with that?

[jitterjepp]

Any "dumbass" can skid their rear tire--a skilled rider takes pride in never skidding their tire! Which one are YOU??

TW You’re the IMBA rep and talking like that? (I just noticed it at the bottom of your post.) That's lame. I'm an IMBA member and I don't think that’s anyway to represent my $50 a year. Can we get someone a bit more tactful? Any "*dumbass*" can talk like that. You have all levels of riders on the trails. You're going to have skidders. You're going to have maintenance.

[Tim Wegner]

I do not remember in my posting about skidding mentioning anyone by name. In fact I specifically addressed my post to ALL riders. I followed a rider around the expert trail yesterday who skidded around the first 3 turns. This rider was very fast, would I call him a skilled rider? Obviously not, otherwise he would have been able to negotiate the turns at speed, under control.

Those are the riders that are in the category of "dumbass." They think the trails are built for them to do whatever they want to on them and never show up to help with the fixing of the damaged trails sections.

As far as braking is concerned, anyone can lock up the rear brake. A skilled rider knows how to modulate BOTH brakes and reduce speed appropriately without lockup!

As far as my being the IMBA rep--I am in the position because I saw a need to become involved with trails, access and land manager relationships. I am not married to this position. As soon as someone else comes forward that has the skills to work with land managers, DNR, state parks, unions, other user groups AND is willing to donate 250-300 hrs per year in volunteer time I will step down and let the more qualified person promote mountain biking and trails.

I asked in my last post for riders to evaluate which group their riding style put them into, the skilled rider group or that other group. If a rider's style puts them in to the "other" group maybe this is a good time to develop riding skills that do not damage the trail and endanger the future new trail develpment.

Lastly, I apologize for using the term d******. It is not my intent to anger someone but to make them think about the impact that negative riding style has on the trails and the enjoyment of the others that will follow on those trails in the future.

TW

[gopherhockey]

Agreed... I suggest trailbuilders take this into account when planning/designing/routing new trails. I would rather flow up and around a berm than skid, wouldn't you?They (we) do, actually. The problem is that sometimes we take a chance hoping a nice flowing downhill that meets IMBA design standards will stand up to riders... but even sections built appropriately can become damaged.

What it comes down too is taking less chances on fun fast downhills and keeping riders speed down by trail design. This is going to mean less of those fun downhill sections and perhaps less trail opportunities as we stay away from areas that look like they might be kind of fun for the riders. It may even mean closing down trails or trail sections - but usually re-routes.

I myself want to err on the side of taking a chance. We have interesting terrain here in Minnesota, but we have to really work with what we have to make things fun and exciting. I love hearing the "weeeeeeeee!" or "yahoooooo"s coming from people back in the XX loop as they hit the downhill just after the rock climb (before the first bridge). What would this trail be without that fun section.

It is impossible to design a trail and completely remove the "skid" factor (or other factors of erosion - riding on wet trials etc.) I think we need a good balance between what we see from the riders out there and what we'd like to put into the trail - then learn as we go.

Rider education is a HUGE part of this, which is why this discussion is here. Not everyone likes to be told or to be suggested they aren't skilled because they skid. Hopefully it makes us all think a little about what it means to be a mountain biker. Its not the rider vs. the trail, its the rider working WITH the trail. Can one skid around a corner and show some type of skill? Sure, I can see that if all you measure is the rider and his bike. But when we are out there in nature on trails built with much effort on land provided too us by land managers trusting in our ability to keep them sustained it goes much deeper than that.

[Tim Wegner]

Agreed... I would rather flow up and around a berm than skid, wouldn't you?
I love berms as well, they really help with trail flow and enjoyment. However, they present a whole new set of building challenges. You must manage water flow that disrupted by a berm, you have to make sure the berm drains water, you have to allow a smooth exit and entrance flow, you must find material that will blend with the natural environment for the outside edge of the berm and berms are very labor intensive to build.

John L loves berms but he can't build them himself. He needs the help of volunteers willing to use the rock sling to move rocks, wheelbarrows to move dirt etc.

John has a major task in front of him this year. Right now he has about 1.7 miles of new trail that needs to be finished. The rough cut has been done with the dingo and bob but now it is time for the hand work to get started.
So if you want to get involved with trail design and build, helping John is the first step. You as a team get to decide which features get put in which place and where the "fun spots" will be on the trail.

I think John is starting trail work tomorrow, May 4th, 5:30 at the parking lot. Show your support and help John play in the dirt at Lebanon.
TW

[Trevize1138]

Wow, who knew skidding could become such a heated topic?

How 'bout this solution: make a couple "tips" signs for various sections to help out new riders. For example, early on in the intermediate singletrack there's a washboard section where too many people have locked up their rear brakes to negotiate the turn. Just post a sign at the top of the downhill that reads: "Riding tip: put your tighs on the saddle and use your front brake more to control descents" and then maybe even include a little graphic of a rider in that position: thighs over the saddle, body lower to the bike. Hmm ... too many words: "Donwhill ahead! Lean back, use front brake!"

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)

[gopherhockey]

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)
Thats a great idea! We do have some signs that could be used that look more permanent - not the messy ones that I hung up last year that are starting to degrade. Maybe its time to sit down and figure out where these could be used and get them installed.

How about "hey dumb****, don't skid!"

Just kidding ;)

[jkalla]

Wow, who knew skidding could become such a heated topic?

How 'bout this solution: make a couple "tips" signs for various sections to help out new riders. For example, early on in the intermediate singletrack there's a washboard section where too many people have locked up their rear brakes to negotiate the turn. Just post a sign at the top of the downhill that reads: "Riding tip: put your tighs on the saddle and use your front brake more to control descents" and then maybe even include a little graphic of a rider in that position: thighs over the saddle, body lower to the bike. Hmm ... too many words: "Donwhill ahead! Lean back, use front brake!"

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)
There is a lot of assumption here that people want to change or improve their riding style. I think there are a few people that honestly enjoy skidding, not knowing what damage they may be doing to the trail. To those that say they can ride faster with skidding than other riders who don't - this isn't about riding fast - it's about sustainable trails.

Encouraging unskilled riders to rely on their front brake while descending could result in a few endo's. I am not sure if that is the best advice to give. How about this "Don't lock your brakes."

How about this for an invention - anti-lock brakes for bikes.

[jitterjepp]

Wow, who knew skidding could become such a heated topic?

How 'bout this solution: make a couple "tips" signs for various sections to help out new riders. For example, early on in the intermediate singletrack there's a washboard section where too many people have locked up their rear brakes to negotiate the turn. Just post a sign at the top of the downhill that reads: "Riding tip: put your tighs on the saddle and use your front brake more to control descents" and then maybe even include a little graphic of a rider in that position: thighs over the saddle, body lower to the bike. Hmm ... too many words: "Donwhill ahead! Lean back, use front brake!"

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)
That sounds like a better idea than the name calling here. Hillside has a big sign at the trail head about skidding. I dont know if it's helping or not. I think the reason there is so much dammage out there this year has more to do with the amount of moisture in the soil than skidding. Its not packing very well and it seems like its easily stired in some areas. I've noticed this at all the trails I've been to this year even the ones that are only riden by a few people. It's much worse than past years. We also didnt get much snow over the winter and I haven't seen a lot of rain this spring. When you live in the country you are reminded of the amount of snow you got over the winter by the amount of dust blowing around in the spring. I also think that some of the material that is like clay which holds the dirt together making a hard packed trail gets washed away in some areas more easily than other areas. Has anyone ever done a soil test that would support this? I don't think that skidding alone would cause such dammage. They build jumps with dirt and put cement over them so they dont have those kinds of issues but the dont skid going up the jumps so there must be other problems.

Either way I'm still a bit dissapointed about some people dissing the kids, few people saying anything about, making excuses about it and then telling me to chill out when other people are calling people a "dumbass" and ignorant. I doubt that's how they will print concerns about skidding in the IMBA news letter.

There was this guy in my neighborhood when I was a kid who would come running out the front door screaming everytime some kid put a foot in his yard. He had this super green lawn that was cut so perfect. Some of you guys sound like him. The guy came over to my house one day and bitched to my dad because I walked in his yard to get the frisbee. My dad laughed at him and shut the door in his face without saying a word. I should have just done that here.

[socrates]

After riding at Lebanon today(first time since the double angioplasty) I do not understand the people that skid their tires. Since Dale and I do most of the trail design it seems it is expected that the trail when built will stand up to anything. Look at it this way, we design a trail that will be fun to ride, we put fast downhill sections in to make riders happy, we put technical sections in to add challenge etc.

So, when we come up on a section that is being destroyed by a "dumbass" skidding his tires, we look at each other and decide that we can't do the trail like that anymore. Consequently it is necessary to dumb down the features on the trail. Slower downhills, more gradual turns, fewer challenges. Even the expert trail is beginning to show damage from skidding. Howcome I can ride the entire trail system and not skid?? I know I don't ride as fast as some of you (old fart I am) today I rode everything in the park without dabbing(face plants do not count as a dab). So maybe it is not about seeing how fast you can go in the park. Any "dumbass" can go fast and skid into a turn, a skilled rider should be able to control his bike at all times.

So you as a rider decide. Do you want exciting trails with challenges and some sections that you can't ride the first time or do you want a dumbed down version of what might be built. Also eroded trails speak volumes to those that we do not want any more mountain bike trails in the Metro area. When an area is damaged by skidding it is also diffucult to take a land manager out and show him the trail design and utilization. I believe that Dale and I design and build the best trail with the most challenge that land managers will allow, it is up to riders to step up to the plate and ride in manner that will preserve the trails for the future.

Any "dumbass" can skid their rear tire--a skilled rider takes pride in never skidding their tire! Which one are YOU??

TW
Very well said!

[socrates]

There is a lot of assumption here that people want to change or improve their riding style. I think there are a few people that honestly enjoy skidding, not knowing what damage they may be doing to the trail. To those that say they can ride faster with skidding than other riders who don't - this isn't about riding fast - it's about sustainable trails.

Encouraging unskilled riders to rely on their front brake while descending could result in a few endo's. I am not sure if that is the best advice to give. How about this "Don't lock your brakes."

How about this for an invention - anti-lock brakes for bikes.You know I was going to post something along this line too but then I stopped and thought about the 3 HS kids out there riding yesterday...when they got to the mini-bridge in the X loop they stopped and waited to watch exactly how Phillip and I would take it before attempting it theirselves....the next lap through I believe they didn't hesitate when they came up upon it....so I must say there are a few individuals wanting to improve....but I know as you've said above there are a good deal that feel there isn't any room left for them to improve (must be nice to be perfect like they are :D )

[socrates]

I love berms as well, they really help with trail flow and enjoyment. However, they present a whole new set of building challenges. You must manage water flow that disrupted by a berm, you have to make sure the berm drains water, you have to allow a smooth exit and entrance flow, you must find material that will blend with the natural environment for the outside edge of the berm and berms are very labor intensive to build.

John L loves berms but he can't build them himself. He needs the help of volunteers willing to use the rock sling to move rocks, wheelbarrows to move dirt etc.

John has a major task in front of him this year. Right now he has about 1.7 miles of new trail that needs to be finished. The rough cut has been done with the dingo and bob but now it is time for the hand work to get started.
So if you want to get involved with trail design and build, helping John is the first step. You as a team get to decide which features get put in which place and where the "fun spots" will be on the trail.

I think John is starting trail work tomorrow, May 4th, 5:30 at the parking lot. Show your support and help John play in the dirt at Lebanon.
TW
I know I'm gonna go off topic here (sorry John) but I wanted to thank you TW....I had the opportunity to see the work you guys have done with the dingo's in the past few weeks...it's amazing just how different the unfinished trail looks today...it's very different than the way it was when we were working on it back in October/November (for the better!)......it's going to be awesome!

[Kosk]

Based on what I've seen going into my second season of riding in MN, the problem is not so much skidding, but overall wear and tear from over-use. The amont of riders/mile-of-trail in the Metro area is crazy. Now take into account that Leb is the most popular of all these trails. Whether they are novice or expert riders, Lebanon just gets more tire on it in a season than any other trail. I got into riding while I was in college in Montana and I see more people in the parking lot at Leb on a wednesday night than I would see total riding 5 nights a week out West. No wonder it gets tore up so fast. Trails are just like bikes, the more often and the harder you ride them, the more work they need put back in to keep them running *smoothly*.

See you all at trail work tomorrow.

P.S. - We got 66.3" of snow this year, that's 10.3" ABOVE average...:D

[LightWeight]

First post...

With all this talk of skidding and poor rider technique, does anyone have any good links with tips to build up one's skills? I'm pretty new to singletrack and off-road riding in general. I sure would appreciate any advice on proper braking technique in various situations as well as any other basic techniques. I've read through some of the tips posted here (which are very helpful, by the way) but I sure could use some more.

What a cool site. I definitely plan on spending more time here! :crazy2: :crazy:

[Trevize1138]

There is a lot of assumption here that people want to change or improve their riding style. I think there are a few people that honestly enjoy skidding, not knowing what damage they may be doing to the trail. To those that say they can ride faster with skidding than other riders who don't - this isn't about riding fast - it's about sustainable trails.

Encouraging unskilled riders to rely on their front brake while descending could result in a few endo's. I am not sure if that is the best advice to give. How about this "Don't lock your brakes."

How about this for an invention - anti-lock brakes for bikes.
Guess that's why I mentioned saying both lean back and use the front brake, reenforced by an image of a biker leaning further back on the bike. If we don't want to come off as dictating to people the "good" or "bad" way to ride, that's just a matter of wording on the sign:

"Downhill tip: try leaning back and using the front brake more."

Of course, just having a sign there notifying people of upcoming downhills, obstacles or turns can be a big help. Sometimes people lock up their rear brakes and skid when they get surprised by a part of the trail they don't know.

[socrates]

First post...

With all this talk of skidding and poor rider technique, does anyone have any good links with tips to build up one's skills? I'm pretty new to singletrack and off-road riding in general. I sure would appreciate any advice on proper braking technique in various situations as well as any other basic techniques. I've read through some of the tips posted here (which are very helpful, by the way) but I sure could use some more.

What a cool site. I definitely plan on spending more time here! :crazy2: :crazy:
Welcome and please don't be put off by our sometimes heated discussions...it's only because we all have a very person tie to the trails in the area....but with that said there are quite a few posts here on tech's...infact last year we did offer "training" classes (I heard some discuss a while back about doing it again this year)....but in the mean time please don't be a stranger here and please feel free to ask questions

[socrates]

Guess that's why I mentioned saying both lean back and use the front brake, reenforced by an image of a biker leaning further back on the bike. If we don't want to come off as dictating to people the "good" or "bad" way to ride, that's just a matter of wording on the sign:

"Downhill tip: try leaning back and using the front brake more."

Of course, just having a sign there notifying people of upcoming downhills, obstacles or turns can be a big help. Sometimes people lock up their rear brakes and skid when they get surprised by a part of the trail they don't know.
Uggh...I feel sick.....I agree with a tree hugger :sick: (and to make matter worse I'm not sure I could have said it any better either)

[iceskier]

I dont' know of any links, but a great book to read is "Mountain Bike Like a Champion" by Ed Pavelka and ned Overend. This book describes techniques for riding over things, around things, up things, and faster than other things. It is an enjoyable read!!

[SPR]

Wow, who knew skidding could become such a heated topic?

How 'bout this solution: make a couple "tips" signs for various sections to help out new riders. For example, early on in the intermediate singletrack there's a washboard section where too many people have locked up their rear brakes to negotiate the turn. Just post a sign at the top of the downhill that reads: "Riding tip: put your tighs on the saddle and use your front brake more to control descents" and then maybe even include a little graphic of a rider in that position: thighs over the saddle, body lower to the bike. Hmm ... too many words: "Donwhill ahead! Lean back, use front brake!"

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)Could we also put an obstacle prior to these problem skid areas such as a log across the trail that would necessitate slowing down before these areas are reached? I know we've done similar things in the past.

[gopherhockey]

That sounds like a better idea than the name calling here. Hillside has a big sign at the trail head about skidding. I dont know if it's helping or not.
Its really hard not to use names, especially the more work you do on a trail. I've seen it first hand - one builds up a certain ownership and protectiveness over a trail that you have sweated over for hours, days, years... I have fallen into this real hard after spending a good majority of my time out at Lebanon working on the trail last year. I start being real confused when people don't just intuitively know not to ride on wet trails etc. Then I have to keep reminding myself that just a few years ago I may have not known any better either.

The good thing about these discussion forums is that we can all be passionate about our views, but it all comes down to some real great ideas and solutions in the end... and... hopefully no hard feelings by anyone.

Heck, I'm the first to admit I'm a trail working dumb**** - half the time I should be RIDING rather than working out there. ;)

I couldn't be more proud to be a member of the mountain biking scene here in Minnesota...

[gopherhockey]

Could we also put an obstacle prior to these problem skid areas such as a log across the trail that would necessitate slowing down before these areas are reached? I know we've done similar things in the past.Yup, this is exactly one possible option. I don't think it always comes down to re-routes or major trail changes... just some strategic rocks or logs. Its definitely a learning process and we might not get it right the first time - but thats part of the fun as well.

We're in trail building mode right now, but soon after we might go out and fix some of these areas. I hope to have some people show up with some of these great ideas... for example, the newest section of trail we opened exiting the park. Its fast - much faster than I anticipated. We built a couple of small obstacles - one with rocks, one with logs. These were put in before we really saw how riders were going to take this section of trail, and the end result I think is that riders are breaking just before as they aren't prepared for something to be in their path at that speed.

Then again if they don't know the trail they shouldn't be going that fast... which is the argument against too many warning or informational signs. I think we could use more though, if even just for added safety out there.

Here is a challenge for everyone. Next time you ride Lebanon, take a look at where you are and the trail conditions. If you see a place that could use a warning or directional sign, make a mental note and post it. If you see some trail damage, think about some solutions that might work and bring em' up. (just be careful because diagnosing the trail while riding can become a sickness...)

[rowland]

One thought on signs, Sunday I crashed pretty good. Even though I knew right where I was, it was no treat trying to explain it to the emergency people.

I think some type of mile marker system or something that could pinpoint areas of singletrack in relation to hiking trails might really speed up response time.

Even the riders that are familiar with the trail make mistakes.

Jason

[gopherhockey]

One thought on signs, Sunday I crashed pretty good. Even though I knew right where I was, it was no treat trying to explain it to the emergency people.

I think some type of mile marker system or something that could pinpoint areas of singletrack in relation to hiking trails might really speed up response time.

Even the riders that are familiar with the trail make mistakes.

JasonGood point and good idea! If you notice, there is already a mile marker system being put in place... but nobody has adopted it to a map just yet. You'll see strange signs with labels such as "D3" or "N2" out there. Each trail has its own "letter" and each number designates a .2 mile mark. We just haven't gotten it all completed yet.

Sorry to hear you crashed! Hope all is ok now... thanks for the suggestion on how to improve and leverage this trial marker system!

[KleinCrazy]

Wow, who knew skidding could become such a heated topic?


How 'bout this solution: make a couple "tips" signs for various sections to help out new riders. For example, early on in the intermediate singletrack there's a washboard section where too many people have locked up their rear brakes to negotiate the turn. Just post a sign at the top of the downhill that reads: "Riding tip: put your tighs on the saddle and use your front brake more to control descents" and then maybe even include a little graphic of a rider in that position: thighs over the saddle, body lower to the bike. Hmm ... too many words: "Donwhill ahead! Lean back, use front brake!"

Like John said: good trail design only goes so far. So, if rider education is needed, why not a few extra, helpful signs here-and-there? :)
Signs,

Hey all, on this topic I might have some great photos and video of a trail with "interpretive" signs on it.

Fruita Colorado, Loma Exit lot. 3.5 mile loop called Rustlers. Has about 30 signs on everthing from how to ride on singletrack, negotiate ledges, S-curves, rocks, SKIDDING!!!, flora, Fauna. All very informative and I thought was a good idea.

Just my 2 cents. I like the idea.

P.S. Fruita Colorado, Trail. Woo-woo-woo. Elevation 8500, Trail width 8 inches, trail surface broken shale, exposure 800 feet down on one side, 600 feet down on the other. Total fall area around trail 3 feet each side. Wind speeds the day I rode it, 70 mph+

Hell Yeah!!!!

[zerpy]

wow.. great response to the thread. i am almost certain that the next group ride i go on i will accidetntally skid in every turn, murphy will make me look like an ass! :crazy2:

Good job on taking the MSF guys. I took it about 2.5 years ago. Learned A LOT. I can say that i have never locked the front wheel on the moto, but i have had enough incidents locking the rear that i know how weird it feels when the bike gets a little squirrely.
What kinds of cycles do you ride? I ride a 2001 Kawasaki zr-7s. We should have a group motorcycle ride sometime.

JoshHere we go back off topic again, but I did get a cycle this weekend Josh. Kind of funny, I put an offer on a 2001 Kawi zr7-s but decided not to get it because Leo's south pissed me off. I didn't even remember that you had one, I was just catching up on this thread and ran across your post again. In the end, I ended up with a '93 Honda CBR600F2. Has a vance and hines pipe, K&N filter and a carb job for the mods. Very clean bike and pretty snappy. It'll even lift the wheel up with my fat butt on it (not that I EVER want to do that again:crazy: ). Not necessarily tooo far off topic, both deal with obsessions of the two wheeled variety:)

[Kevin Leis]

I followed a guy at the blast Sunday for a while who was skidding almost every turn. Like he thought that sliding the rear helped him corner faster. I passed him. Most of those corners I didn't even need to brake for and it was a good lesson to see how much momentum and energy was wasted by skidding. Our bodies only pack so much energy. Why waste it reaccellerating after burning it off your tires and the trail. Brake then turn, just like riding a street bike at a fast pace. A person couldn't get away with skidding for long on a sport bike. You'd end up in a hospital or dead. Just my thoughts on the topic.

[J2]

I followed a guy at the blast Sunday for a while who was skidding almost every turn. Like he thought that sliding the rear helped him corner faster. I passed him. Most of those corners....
heh, that was prolly me...

[Kevin Leis]

heh, that was prolly me...:hit: LMOA.... What were you riding and what race?

[noise_is_life]

One thing I came up with concerning skidding on my ride tonight. Instead of just yelling at people about skidding you might try giving a helpful hint.

Of course using the front brake is the obvious one, but another would be tire pressure. I ran my tires a little harder than usual tonight probably less than 10psi and I was having to work extra hard not to skid. Of course the sketchy tightness of Theo brought it out more that it would have at Leb, but I imagine alot of beginning riders over-inflate their tires.

[Kevin Leis]

One thing I came up with concerning skidding on my ride tonight. Instead of just yelling at people about skidding you might try giving a helpful hint.

Of course using the front brake is the obvious one, but another would be tire pressure. I ran my tires a little harder than usual tonight probably less than 10psi and I was having to work extra hard not to skid. Of course the sketchy tightness of Theo brought it out more that it would have at Leb, but I imagine alot of beginning riders over-inflate their tires....and with how dry it has been the trails can be like sand covered cement. Or wait maybe I was on a road ride yesterday.:crazy2:

[qheuie]

wow. i never thought this seemingly harmless post would generate such an intriguing and heated discussion. i think it is interesting how my original post has been interpreted in so many different ways. picking on kids, pointing out deficiencies, yelling at people, personal attacks on people, implying that people that skid are "bad", etc :) (i guess i did fail to mention that one of the bmx'ers caught some hella impressive air off the first log pile entering X)

i must repeat that in no way did i intend to "pick" on anyone or "yell" at anyone or put down their riding abilities. i was just curious about other peoples thoughts on the subject. i apologize for using the word "ignorant". if i had stopped at "do these people really think skidding is useful or are they just going too fast." i bet the thread wouldn't even have half the replies it does.
one of the not-so-obvious implied questions in my original post is: how much does skidding actually hurt a trail? is there some kind of metric to measure the impact of different types of skids? are skid zones even noticeable before it is too late? (meaning they are already washboarded up, etc) like jitterjepp said, there is a lot of traffic at leb, how difficult is it to distinguish normal wear and tear from abnormal wear and tear?

the good news of all this is that it looks like a lot of good ideas have come in the responses, which is good. posting signs, offering beginner rider tips, designing the trails so that it is easier to not skid, etc.

josh

[gopherhockey]

the good news of all this is that it looks like a lot of good ideas have come in the responses, which is good. posting signs, offering beginner rider tips, designing the trails so that it is easier to not skid, etc.

joshThis is exactly right. I don't think anyone has been all that personally insulted (I hope) by comments made. The end result is as you have stated, great ideas and ways to help us help others. Getting there sometimes takes some rather heated discussion...

We all have to be careful as well for those on the outside looking in... those that don't post, or those riding the trails that just don't know about MORC or know that there is a concerned group of riders that want to keep our trails sustainable. These people can get a very bad quick impression if they read insults and take it the wrong way.. or if they are yelled at out on the trail. Those are likely lost memebers, and probably people we will never reach. I can only hope they continue to read and see these discussions for what they are and maybe even register and join in.

I'm glad this isn't a place where we preach one way and nobody is willing to discuss the matter.

Great post...

BTW: after a group ride we had last night it is obvious that skids can happen in places one might not expect even if they know how to control their bike. Breaking bumps can force small skids, as can exposed roots near corners. Getting out of control can quickly create a skid. These are things we can try fix on the trail, but largely cannot avoid. Next time I see a skid on the trail I might be more apt to think of other ways they may have happened - not just someone slamming on their brakes.

[gopherhockey]

Another perspective:

When looking up reasons not to skid for a new brochure I'm working on I ran accross this little tidbit...

Don't be a Sphincter-boy!

Mountain biking is about having a good time. We all "bend" the rules of trail courtesy now and then, because it's the most practical thing under the circumstances. Give other bikers the "assumption of good intentions." Rider runs into the bushes while grinding down the trail? Maybe he was out of control and about to crash. Knobby tires excavated a few pounds of dirt skidding around that switchback? He's a newbie, and it's the best he can do. You don't have to ruin somebody else's day by being the "Trail Policeman." Just keep your mouth shut, smile, have fun, and let others enjoy this glorious sport.

--

I'm not sure I agree with keeping your mouth completely shut, but I do think there is an appropriate and non-appropriate way to confront people out on the trails...
:p

[Kevin Leis]

Another perspective:

When looking up reasons not to skid for a new brochure I'm working on I ran accross this little tidbit...

Don't be a Sphincter-boy!

Mountain biking is about having a good time. We all "bend" the rules of trail courtesy now and then, because it's the most practical thing under the circumstances. Give other bikers the "assumption of good intentions." Rider runs into the bushes while grinding down the trail? Maybe he was out of control and about to crash. Knobby tires excavated a few pounds of dirt skidding around that switchback? He's a newbie, and it's the best he can do. You don't have to ruin somebody else's day by being the "Trail Policeman." Just keep your mouth shut, smile, have fun, and let others enjoy this glorious sport.

--

I'm not sure I agree with keeping your mouth completely shut, but I do think there is an appropriate and non-appropriate way to confront people out on the trails...
:pI agree with you about the not keeping my mouth shut entirely but courteous goes along way. Once my brother and I were riding at Milaca on one of our first trips riding there, we didn't know which direction the trail ran, and we were going the wrong way. Another rider was coming the opposite way and we gave him the right away. As he went by he was visibly angry and he shouted at us that we were going the wrong way. Needless to say we weren't impressed and we didn't change directions either. we do now ride the right direction but the same results could have been accomplished differently. He could have found some new riding partners or educated us on trail ediquette years sooner than it took me to educate myself. But his rudeness made my feel like all cycling enthusiasts were egomaniacs. I've since become a cycling enthusiast and know that most are very nice. So respect and kindness go alot further than rudeness.:cool:

[syntaxjunkie]

it's a fine line between trying to be helpful and coming off as obnoxious, especially when people are on bikes and moving fast or through a tight spot. adrenaline and testosterone (where relevent) tend to combine to make people a little less open to well intended advice than usual. i've been on both the giving and the receiving end, and it's nothing if not awkward.

what sometimes helps is being able to tell people that you're part of a group that does a lot of volunteer work to build and maintain the trails, so maybe you tend to be a little protective of them. more often than not, they don't know about MORC at all. a lot of them end up wanting to get in on the trail work. some of them even become members.

i've found myself having this conversation with someone almost every time i ride. sometimes it's after i run into them riding the wrong way. usually it's just taking a break between laps. and i'd like ot think that whoever i'm talking to at least leaves with a little more respect for the trail.

[jitterjepp]

Based on what I've seen going into my second season of riding in MN, the problem is not so much skidding, but overall wear and tear from over-use. The amont of riders/mile-of-trail in the Metro area is crazy. Now take into account that Leb is the most popular of all these trails. Whether they are novice or expert riders, Lebanon just gets more tire on it in a season than any other trail. I got into riding while I was in college in Montana and I see more people in the parking lot at Leb on a wednesday night than I would see total riding 5 nights a week out West. No wonder it gets tore up so fast. Trails are just like bikes, the more often and the harder you ride them, the more work they need put back in to keep them running *smoothly*.

See you all at trail work tomorrow.

P.S. - We got 66.3" of snow this year, that's 10.3" ABOVE average...:D
You are right. I checked it out. I did snow more than average but it didn't stick around. The section between 55 and the rr tracks is usually under two feet of water at the beginning of the season for about a month. We didn't get the big snow melt or spring rains here. Basset creek is also floods over the road on wirth parkway. Nothing this year so far.

I really think there is more to all those trail problems than skidders. I think you guys may be a bit into your trail and not wanting to look at other things like the amount of use it gets or design. I think its a great trail but I also think it is too wide and raking it and other things create issues. We've been riding out at wirth for years and we haven't really ever done any regular maintenance. I see guys out there skidding all the time. So what gives? I have to say as far as trail conditions much of wirth is the best around. There are a few bad spots but considering we haven't really been out there on a regular basis it leads me to wonder.

[KleinCrazy]

Shawn,


Something to remember is that Theo gets about as much traffic in one month as Lebanon does in one week.

Use is a huge issue in how a trail survives and design needs to be taken into account for that. If you look at any of the old singletrack at theo, you will notice that it sits about 1-2 inches below the everything around it. This is normal for trails built on flats or minor inclines. If Lebanon was only 8 inches wide, it would be 3-4 inches deep in a matter of months just due to it's level of use. The wide the path, the less compaction you get. Now, I don't think the trails should be 4 feet wide, but everthing like that needs to be taken into account.

I expect the traffic at Theo to increase dramatically this summer and next, and we will have a lot to do to keep erosion under control. The soil there is different then at Leb, and the elevations we have to work with are less so we will have a challenge.

Just my 2 cents

[Kevin Leis]

it's a fine line between trying to be helpful and coming off as obnoxious, especially when people are on bikes and moving fast or through a tight spot. adrenaline and testosterone (where relevent) tend to combine to make people a little less open to well intended advice than usual. i've been on both the giving and the receiving end, and it's nothing if not awkward.

what sometimes helps is being able to tell people that you're part of a group that does a lot of volunteer work to build and maintain the trails, so maybe you tend to be a little protective of them. more often than not, they don't know about MORC at all. a lot of them end up wanting to get in on the trail work. some of them even become members.

i've found myself having this conversation with someone almost every time i ride. sometimes it's after i run into them riding the wrong way. usually it's just taking a break between laps. and i'd like ot think that whoever i'm talking to at least leaves with a little more respect for the trail.I agree with you. Even educating people I ride with is akward. They tend to think that I've gotten to serious about this riding thing. But most parking lot chats I've had are guite pleasant. They usually center around other trails around the area and never on riding technique. I'm surprised at the number of people who know of a couple of trails but not of the trail network here. I usually tell them about this site.:laugh:

[grizzly adam]

I've never looked too hard, but is there room on the board in the parking lot where we could have some statement that advertises how MORC has brought Lebanon to where it is now? I see people go over and get a map. It would be cool if while they were there, they could also read some sort of quick bio about how the current Leb came to be, maybe with some trailwork photos. Then around/under the photos, we could mention some trial rules or "things to think about when riding". I think if people are aware of some of the issues with the trail, they'll pick up on 'em easier while they're out on their lap.

As far as signage - why not just a couple of the good ole down arrows in some spots - just to let people know there's something ahead.

[gopherhockey]

I've never looked too hard, but is there room on the board in the parking lot where we could have some statement that advertises how MORC has brought Lebanon to where it is now? I see people go over and get a map. It would be cool if while they were there, they could also read some sort of quick bio about how the current Leb came to be, maybe with some trailwork photos. Then around/under the photos, we could mention some trial rules or "things to think about when riding". I think if people are aware of some of the issues with the trail, they'll pick up on 'em easier while they're out on their lap.

As far as signage - why not just a couple of the good ole down arrows in some spots - just to let people know there's something ahead.
Both good ideas. We have talked to Dakota about space on the main sign, but they want to try standardize all their signs. I think we might have to push for a separate MORC only sign at some point.

Dale and I are going to get a map and review the current trails and get some more signage out there - I agree some caution down arrow type signs would be good. We're missing quite a bit of signage at this point... hopefully this will happen in the next week.

[noise_is_life]

I think you should make a MORC stencil and spraypaint it on all of the man made obstacles.

[syntaxjunkie]

ok, now that we're off on something of a completely new tangent unrelated to skidding, i'll be even less relevent.

it strikes me that perhaps the best way to recruit new MORC members would be to advertise at the places people buy their bikes. after all, they've just shelled out at least $500 and usually more like $1,500 for a swanky new bike. and many of them won't have the first idea of where to ride it. $25-$50 for a MORC membership will seem like a pittance.

IMBA did a nice job with their "long live long rides" campaign, but i don't think they used the campaign to its fullpotential as a recruiting tool. never seen one of the posters in a bike shop.

since my only remotely marketable skill is as an advertising creative, i'll volunteer to handle the writing end of the new MORC recruiting poster campaign. and i'm pretty sure i can guilt one of my designer riding buddies into helping me make stuff look pretty.

i know that MORC has fairly strong alliances with the local retail community, so getting posters on walls, windows, etc. should be less of a hassle than it might otherwise be.

two questions:

reality check: does anyone else think this is a good idea?

powers-that-be check: john et al, is this something MORC has considered or would consider?

[fisherbikefreak]

ok, now that we're off on something of a completely new tangent unrelated to skidding, i'll be even less relevent.

it strikes me that perhaps the best way to recruit new MORC members would be to advertise at the places people buy their bikes. after all, they've just shelled out at least $500 and usually more like $1,500 for a swanky new bike. and many of them won't have the first idea of where to ride it. $25-$50 for a MORC membership will seem like a pittance.

IMBA did a nice job with their "long live long rides" campaign, but i don't think they used the campaign to its fullpotential as a recruiting tool. never seen one of the posters in a bike shop.

since my only remotely marketable skill is as an advertising creative, i'll volunteer to handle the writing end of the new MORC recruiting poster campaign. and i'm pretty sure i can guilt one of my designer riding buddies into helping me make stuff look pretty.

i know that MORC has fairly strong alliances with the local retail community, so getting posters on walls, windows, etc. should be less of a hassle than it might otherwise be.

two questions:

reality check: does anyone else think this is a good idea?

powers-that-be check: john et al, is this something MORC has considered or would consider?
I'll volunteer as your PR guy -- more than willing to help recruit some newbies like myself. Love the socks, oh and the trails are okay too!

"Your $20 MORC membership will help ensure technical trails for you to ride your new high-tech bike on. Oh and we'll throw in a pair of MORC socks!"

"Nice bike. Want to ride it? Join MORC."

Okay, there's always a first draft!:etard:

[syntaxjunkie]

everybody's a copywriter...

seriously, i think this could be cool.

:banana:

[gopherhockey]

reality check: does anyone else think this is a good idea?

powers-that-be check: john et al, is this something MORC has considered or would consider?
First of all I'm so very pleased when I see someone coming up with ideas like this - especially those that aren't on the board. In order for MORC to grow its going to take our members coming up with great new ways to attract more members, spread the word, show pride in the organization and what it stands for etc. I love seeing this type of thing come up!

Regarding your idea - I like it. What you should know is that there is a campaign going on at the larger shops in the area to have them offer memberships with each bike they sell. We have printed up cards and are getting stickers for these dealers windows saying that they support MORC. I think what you suggest could tie right into this.

One of our brand new board members, Eric Lealos, has been a great push behind this kind of thing. I'd suggest you guys team up as I think you both could really get something cool going here. You can reach him off our contact page at: http://www.morcmtb.org/morcpages/contact.htm

Again, great idea - and anyone else that ever has an idea please bring it up! Often times we don't do something because we're short the people to get it done.... once the membership steps in and starts to help out we're really going to move the mountain biking scene forward in our state.

:D

[syntaxjunkie]

thanks, john.

i've sent a note to eric to get his thoughts on the matter. and while i'm on the subject, if there are any other creative types--particularly designers and art directors--out there, let me know if you're interested in something like this. i can certainly recruit colleagues, but i'd love to keep it within the MORC family if at all possible.

CKY

[EmL34]

Hey, thanks for contacting me. This rocks!

I sent a note back to Charles to set up a meeting next week. If anyone else is interested in attending or being a part of it, send me a note at EmL34@yahoo.com and I will coordinate.

I'm looking forward to the meeting.

[stoneage]

The City of Minneapolis wants MOCA to put a two sided pamphlet in local shops, not only to advertise the new trails, but to educate about IMBA rules of the trail and trail etiquette. Notes on proper bike handling (including braking) will also be added. Education is the key. Uneducated people think that skidding is the fastest way around the corner. It takes time, but eventually a culture is formed and bad activity is reduced. When I see someone repeatedly skidding at any trail, I politely bring up the fact that it doesn't help their speed or relations with the land manager that gave us permission to use the area. Usually I get a good response, although a 40 something at Wirth dissed me the other day . Then it's kinda fun to school them in the singletrack. Just speak up and let them know that you and a lot of other people care about trail access. If they start a fight, ride away.

[viv]

The best skid method is to get up a good head of steam, put as much weight over the bars as possible. and lock that rear wheel. Go for distance. You can also wag the rear like a dog which makes for interesting lines.

[funky-funky-chicken]

The best skid method is to get up a good head of steam, put as much weight over the bars as possible. and lock that rear wheel. Go for distance. You can also wag the rear like a dog which makes for interesting lines.
I always thought it was much more impressive when someone "peels out." You know, somebody that can shift the weight forward on the bike so that they can spin the back tire with every pedal stroke. Wow... each demonstration of bike prowess is impressive.

[EmL34]

The best skid method is to get up a good head of steam, put as much weight over the bars as possible. and lock that rear wheel. Go for distance. You can also wag the rear like a dog which makes for interesting lines.
I agree, but think it would be funnier if you lock the front brake.

[viv]

Locking the front brake adversly affects stearing

[Kingbozo]

Locking the front brake adversly affects stearing
Is that some form of cow tipping? :D

[viv]

similar but it can be done during the day...

[KleinCrazy]

Ok somewhat off topic but though Locking the front brake does affect steering, using the front brake makes steering much easier.


Knowing how to use the brake to allow the bike to dive into corners and greatly increase the speed at which you can take them.

Great example is the swoopy s-turns in the X loop at Leb after the rock garden.

[Kevin Leis]

Ok somewhat off topic but though Locking the front brake does affect steering, using the front brake makes steering much easier.


Knowing how to use the brake to allow the bike to dive into corners and greatly increase the speed at which you can take them.

Great example is the swoopy s-turns in the X loop at Leb after the rock garden.Maybe you could elaborate on that technique for those of us who don't know it.

[KleinCrazy]

Just Like driving a car,


You touch the brakes to put more weight on the steering part of the car as you go into a turn. works the same way on the bike, light touch on the brakes to get the front in to dig in a little better and hold a tighter line through the corners.

After a weekend driving school up at Brainerd International Speedway, I had a revelation the next time I was on the bike.

[grizzly adam]

Just Like driving a car,


You touch the brakes to put more weight on the steering part of the car as you go into a turn. works the same way on the bike, light touch on the brakes to get the front in to dig in a little better and hold a tighter line through the corners.

After a weekend driving school up at Brainerd International Speedway, I had a revelation the next time I was on the bike.
That's such a good point!! I always try to do my braking before the apex of the corner and then coast through the rest of it or start puttin' on the power. Oh yeah - skidding - if you can get the technique down that James mentioned you should be able to scrub off enough speed and get a good line with good grip through the corner, which would eliminate the skidding.

[zerpy]

If they start a fight, ride away.

What!?!? and miss the opportunity to give someone a good a$$ whoopin? no way! That's the prob with today, so easy to get sued. But if someone is so mad that they're dumb enough to start a fight I couldn't miss the opportunity.

Uh yea officer, I broke his arm in three places and fractured his sternum in self defense....:)

The whole lawsuit thing these days takes all the fun out. THis is going way too far off topic, but it's like road rage. People will come up to your window and mouth off but I can never get anyone to try to hit me. All I want is for that one swing, that one little swing.... See, if they weren't worried about a lawsuit they'd prob do it and I'd be able to open up a can of whoopa$$ on them...:)