Washington County Trails

[Tim Wegner]

I am looking for 6-8 mountain bikers that reside in Washington County. There is going to be a meeting before that park board soon and I need to have some riders from that county willing to speak up for mountain biking.

Here are some of the qualifiers:
1. Resident of Washington County(preferably home owner or buisness owner)
2. Able to speak fluently and passionately about our sport.(without losing your cool or swearing or ranting about SUV's)
3. Someone that has done some trail work recently.
4. Sorry about this one--but politicians listen better to people that are 30 and older. Not saying that younger riders shouldn't respond just stating facts that I have noticed during the past 3 years of presenting to political groups about mountain biking.

Tim Wegner
:crazy:

[TML]

Well, I lived in northern Wash. county for 25 years. I'm sure that doesn't really matter now that I've lived in Ramsey for the last 7 or so. But at any rate, I'm excited with the idea of potential trails in Wash. Co. so if there's anything else I can help with go ahead and keep me in mind.

[Don Youngdahl]

Just got back from the Washington County Open Spaces Committee meeting where I heard an amazing discussion of the MORC proposal to build mountain bike trails in Pine Point Park. There were 6 or 7 bikers there, and about 25 or 30 equestrians, almost all of who were adamently opposed to mountain bikes.

The proposal is for trails on the east side of the park, across the road from the existing horse trails. I heard some astounding stuff, about how disrespectful mountain bike users were to other trail users; about how many bikers ride on horse trails that are clearly posted as closed to bikes; and how totally dangerous and scary it is for their huge, uncontrolable or difficult to control animals [their characterization, not mine] to meet anything they don't recognize (like a bicycle rider) on the trail. When I combine their tales of us poaching their trails with the danger they claim, I'm surprised there were that many equestrians alive and mobile enough to attend the meeting!

Jim Cassell from Stillwater, MORC member and future trail steward for Pine Point, did a good job of explaining MORC's proposal, and respectfully explained (for the second or third time they needed to hear it) that we WERE NOT PROPOSING TO RIDE ON OR NEAR THE EXISTING HORSE TRAILS. (my shouting here is to reflect their inability or unwillingness to hear what we were proposing)

Near the end of the discussion, Tim Wegner, Southern Minnesota IMBA rep, MORC Board member, and trail design expert, got the floor to present an excellent response, which included good responses to the legitimate concerns that were raised by the County, a great set of facts & figures that highlighted our need for trails, and a respectful response to some of the garbage we'd heard from our opponents. Great job, Tim!:banana: :banana:

I'm sure some of the responsible, reasonable equestrians at the meeting were cringing at the statments and hostility of some of their compatriots. After the public comment period was ended and the committee discussion on the subject continued, horse people several times kept interrupting the committee discussion with questions and comments, in defiance of the chair's efforts to quiet them. We had important responses to contribute, but everybody respectfully kept quiet until Tim or Jim was asked a question by the committee. I've attended lots of hearings, legislative committee meetings, etc, and I've never seen a more clear-cut case of one group taking the high road and their opponents taking the low road.

In the committee discussion that followed the public discussion, the majority of the committe were expressing opinions and asking questions that indicated they favored our proposal.

Having read all this, don't think it's a slam dunk that we'll get to build trails at Pine Point. There are still real and legitimate questions to deal with, and horses, stables, and horse boarding are big business in Washington County. The County Commissioner for the Pine point area was there. If the Park Board approves the project, the issue will ultimately be decided by the County Commissioners, who are elected officials. If you're an avid mountain biker and live in Washington County, you should give some serious thought to getting to know where your commissioner might stand on the issue. If he is a man you could support at the polls, you should also give some serious thought to supporting his next election bid, and be certain he knows your're a mountain biker.

Don Youngdahl

[Tim Wegner]

Thanks for the encouragment Don. Yes the meeting was quite interesting. I agree with Don that this is not a slam dunk so everyone needs to get involved on this one. There will soon be an address listed for you to send e-mail or snail mail to to let the commissioners know where you stand on this. Let them know that we are a legitimate recreational activity that does not have a single trail to ride in Washington County.


Remind them that MORC's proposal will give them some great trails built and maintained at no cost to the county. Remind them that MORC has a trail patrol orgainization that will patrol at this park to make sure bikers stary off of the horse trails. Let them know that you vote and you appreciated their support. Lastly DO NOT I repeat DO NOT condemn horses and horse riders!! I can not emphasize this enough. One lady stood up last night and was critical of "those pedal pushers." Believe me she hurt their cause big time. The commissioners just shook their heads(negatively) over her comments. So make sure you take the high road on this one. We responded to all their concerns with facts, studies and letters of recommendations. They only responded with emotions.
TW

[gopherhockey]

This meeting was very educational for me... it was very tough to keep cool when the horse riders started to attack us. Tim and Don are right in how bikers came out looking so much better than the others because we all kept quiet until it was time to speak, then spoke the facts - reminding them that we were not there to make it an us vs. them... but we simply wanted our share of the trails.

One thing that I would like to add is how it was constantly pointed out that bikers were already riding the horse trails at the park. While we see this as an obvious cry for legal trails in the area, it also points out how we can be our own worse enemies! It only takes one rider to ruin it for the rest... so please, the next time you are out on the trail or you are out with friends remember to stay off closed trails, keep off trails not designated as bike trails, don't create trails that do not exist, and most importantly always respect hikers and horse riders regardless of the situation! Even when you see hikers on OUR trails, be careful, let them know you are there, and give them a simple (but nice) reminder that they could get hurt hiking on a bike only trail. Don't create conflict even if you are in the right... these vocal groups pick up on attitude and it only fuels the whole stereotype that bikers can get.

I also took out of this meeting the need for more education when it comes to horses. I never realized that coming up behind a horse is a huge no-no and can create an unsafe scenario that can cause hurt to the horse, the rider, or the biker (or some innocent bystander). I'll do some looking around and we can post a separate thread on this topic.

I spoke to a number of the biggest critics outside the meeting before we left and apologized on behalf of all bikers. Once they realized we were willing to try and work with them and that not all of us had attitude they softened up quickly (although not completely). They have a sport and they are defending it just as we are. I think its important to have a win-win for both groups. It really isn't us vs. them and really never has to be that way. Tim and company did a great job of stressing this last night... great job everyone, and thanks for letting me tag along. Very educational!

We will be posting information on the front page of the site soon on who you can concat regarding the trails in Washington County. We still need riders to speak out.

[Tim Wegner]

I would like to make sure we recognize the work of one of the guys from Washington County that really has worked hard to make these trails become reality. Jim Cassell has worked for several years to get trails at this park. He is diligent, vocal and also respected by the Park Director. Next time you see Jim give him a big "ATTABOY." He is the reason we are as far along on this project as we are today.

TW

[Brick]

I also took out of this meeting the need for more education when it comes to horses. I never realized that coming up behind a horse is a huge no-no and can create an unsafe scenario that can cause hurt to the horse, the rider, or the biker (or some innocent bystander). I'll do some looking around and we can post a separate thread on this topic.

I've read about some of the horse/bike hostility in California. For some reason it never really registered that it would be a huge issue here. IMBA (of course) has some good stuff on this topic:
http://www.imba.com/resources/bike_management/clemson_horses.html

I spoke to a number of the biggest critics outside the meeting before we left and apologized on behalf of all bikers. Once they realized we were willing to try and work with them and that not all of us had attitude they softened up quickly (although not completely). They have a sport and they are defending it just as we are. I think its important to have a win-win for both groups.
Education is a wonderful thing......

[bakkeb]

Speaking of Cali, I hope these "horse people" don't do things to sabatoge the trails (ex. wires across parts of the trail or nails on the trail) if we get them. Leb has horse trails and they aren't even close to our trails. Maybe they need to see how Leb is laid out and how equestrians, bikers, hikers, and xc skiers can all get along and use the same park. That must of been hard to hear a bunch of crying from a group that doesn't even own the land. Good job guys! I feel bad for people living up there with no trails like down here. I live in Eagan so it's hard for me to understand how inconvienent it is to drive or ride a distance to a place like Leb just for a daily ride. More trails is a good thing so I'll send an e-mail if it will help.:etard:

[soupboy]

...had to do something while waiting for the coffee to brew.

Sean

[TML]

...had to do something while waiting for the coffee to brew.

Sean
Excellent letter Sean!

James, Tim, Don, John and the rest that were at the meeting - thanks for your fine representation of us and thanks for your work on this. Sorry I couldn't make it but I'm glad things seem to be moving along with some favorable views of us, at least by those that matter.

Write those letters folks!

[Tim Wegner]

Just got an e-mail from Jim Cassell. The next meeting with Washington County is April 15th. It is extremely important that we write letters of support for the trails at Pine Point Park. Politicians are sensitive to what the public wants and we want new trails. Let the politician know what we want and they should respond favourably.

TW

[ryno lite]

I know we all can't wait to ride and build trails this year, but it may take awhile with all this wet out there so if you're looking for a project to do one evening, you should get on your computer and compose an email or letter to Washington County to help turn the scales in our favor! I finally made my lazy self write a letter advocating for mountain bike trails at Pine Point Park and let me tell you, it's just as satisfying to write a letter advocating for the trails as it is volunteering to build trails! You won't regret taking the time to write it and it will hopefully pay off with an oppurtunity to build and ride in a whole new spot in Minnesota!

[feeds]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone on the work that they have done to date on trying to get a trail system in Washington County. I have just finished my letter and will be e-mailing it to Mr. Luger

:cool:

[TML]

Just got an e-mail from Jim Cassell. The next meeting with Washington County is April 15th. TW
Tim or Jim,

Any more info on the Meeting coming up?

[halls]

As an older (less bolder) mountain biker and resident of washington county and part time bike employee at St.Croix bike and skate, i'am very interested in trails at Pine Point. I recently sent an e-mail to them and explained interest in building and maintaining trails. So let me know about meetings . I would like to attend.
I remember many of these equestrians at meetings way back during the early days of the gateway trail. some concerns are real ,some unfounded. They seem to have plenty of places to ride. Pine Point, Gateway, sunfish, lake elmo. so we should get some trails , if we keep our cool. let me know.

[gopherhockey]

Tim or Jim,

Any more info on the Meeting coming up?I understand the meeting went very poorly for mountain bikers in Washington County. The horse riders basically had their way with us... I'll let someone who was there post more details.

[halls]

I know of three e-mails to mr. luger. he responded to all that they would be forwarded . i believe e-mails would by all of us show continued interest. The horse folks need to know we aren't a threat , that we actually want to see everyone use the trails. More users, more trails for everyone, i hope.

Also friday i rode at the lake elmo park preserve. not technical,but a great place to get your early mountain bike legs. we came across several horse riders. every time we totally stopped,dismounted and moved out of the way. then just observed. they did appreciate this. then we would jump back on and hammer on the trail. they seemed surprised to see us riding out there. so maybe group ride in the area could show the need for a seperate trail system? just a thought.:scream:

[TML]

Tim, James, -

Any official word on what happened at the last meeting?

--TML

[Tim Wegner]

I was not able to attend the meeting on the 15th. Mike Riter (former IMBA Trail Care Crew) did attend as well as Dale G and Jim Cassell. We got trashed!!! According to the equestrians, mountain bikers are the lowest scum of the earth. If they could figure some way to connect us we would be responsible for global warming, el nino, gas prices too high, Bush getting elected, traffic congestion and just being so low in society that we do not deserve to have mountain bike trails anywhere near where a horse might hope to travel.

Mike Riter said it best, "the decision to not allow mountain bikers into Pine Point Park was made before this meeting." The vote on the commission was unanimous against us.

I was disappointed and somewhat surprised. Our presentations were done professionally, based upon science and practical experience. I guess because we refused to stoop to the level of the equestrians and name call and scream emotional comments our arguments did not have substance.

We are not dead yet---there was discussion about Lake Elmo as a possiblity and there might be some other land tracks that may become available.

TW

[ryno lite]

Ouch, that hurts! I spoke with a rider recently at Leb from Hudson area and he wasn't surprised we got nuked. He says the horse people are very strong and influential on either side of the St. Croix valley. His mother is a big horse rider and active in horse groups and his Dad and he are big mtn bikers. Kind of a varied family. Although she rides she still likes bikers cause of her family and she has trained her horses not to get spooked by bike riders. If only all horse people could be like that!

[ryno lite]

My problem with horse trails is that they are catering to such a small usage group. Horse riding is getting so expensive that it is an exclusive club. I think some of these parks would provide for more county users by making bike trails rather than horse trails. Out west it is still affordable to have horses and ride them, but with the price of land and the price of boarding if you can't afford the land in the Twin Cities, it seems to cater to a very elite income level which is unfair to the rest. I'm not against having horse trails, they should have horse trails, but why are they so against another user group getting their space? It bothers me cause horses are allowed in almost every damn park in Minnesota, but biking is never allowed. I just think the horse community is a bit greedy and one day this will be their downfall. The average income person will get sick of the rich having their own personal playground in the county park!

[TML]

According to the equestrians, mountain bikers are the lowest scum of the earth. If they could figure some way to connect us we would be responsible for global warming, el nino, gas prices too high, Bush getting elected, traffic congestion and just being so low in society that we do not deserve to have mountain bike trails anywhere near where a horse might hope to travel.
That's a nice kick to the head. . .




I guess I'll try and hold out some hope for Lake Elmo or one of the other places. Thanks for all the effort you guys.

[Brick]

It bothers me cause horses are allowed in almost every damn park in Minnesota, but biking is never allowed. I just think the horse community is a bit greedy and one day this will be their downfall. The average income person will get sick of the rich having their own personal playground in the county park!
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what was seen at the meeting was a symptom of other issues. In the last 10 years or so, rural Washington county has seen a lot of growth, and a lot of the communities out here are experiencing a LOT of change (on both sides of the river). As a matter of fact, may are working hard to keep the area from being OVER developed (note the current pissing contest between the city of Lake Elmo and the Met council, and the numerous juristictional and growth issues surrounding the replacement of the Stillwater bridge).

I'm guessing horse owners are starting to feel squeezed by growth as they see more and more local land get sold off and developed, and their reaction is purely "knee-jerk" responding to us as a threat in the quest for access to the ever-shrinking pools of open land in Washington county. They can't fight the developers, but they can beat up on the Mountain bikers.

Just wait untill the ATV riders organize and start asking for land access from the county.....I have a feeling that this is going to get worse before it gets better.

[bradpartyka]

Horse sh#t on the trails sucks!!! :mad:

They make dog owners scoop the poop!!! Why not horse owners??? :sick:

[noise_is_life]

Horse sh#t on the trails sucks!!! :mad:

They make dog owners scoop the poop!!! Why not horse owners??? :sick:
Not to mention horses rip the trail to shreds.

[Trevize1138]

Damn, that really sucks!

Can't believe the equestrians would stoop to such a level and be so blind. Guess the only hope is that in the years to come MORC keeps on gaining and maintaining trails and reputation so that one day places like Washington Co. will realize they have to have good mountain bike trails to be competitive with everyone else.

Hard to believe there's still this stereotype out there of mountain bikers as a lot of disrespectful "punk kids" who get their jollies off on scaring those poor horsies. Someone here mentioned the need for plenty of 30+ aged people at meetings, but such a request seemed kinda funny to me because most people I've met through MORC are at least 30 years old! :)

Keep the dream alive, folks! The truth is mountain biking is a yuppie sport with a huge following, not a fringe sport with a cult following. Eventually, Washington Co. will have to face this reality and stop living in their dream world.

[bradpartyka]

You mean theres Mountain Bikers under the age of 30???

How do they afford the 2,000.00+++ bikes??? All I ever see at Lebanon are yuppie SUV's (myself included) and 40K pick ups.

I don't consider the bratty adolescents abusing the trails Mountain Bikers.

[halls]

I have had some (a little) success with sending e-mails to Wash. county. Both times i recieved a response from Jim Luger. The last e-mail mentioned a review of the Lake Elmo Park Reserve Master Plan. So I have a phone call into Mr. Luger to see if i can find out what the "Master Plan" is all about. I would say the more e-mails the better. I totally agree Wash. county is feeling the squeeze, but aren't we all? so let them know how you feel. The more trails , the better.

[berrywise]

As an older (less bolder) mountain biker and resident of washington county and part time bike employee at St.Croix bike and skate, i'am very interested in trails at Pine Point. I recently sent an e-mail to them and explained interest in building and maintaining trails. So let me know about meetings . I would like to attend.
I remember many of these equestrians at meetings way back during the early days of the gateway trail. some concerns are real ,some unfounded. They seem to have plenty of places to ride. Pine Point, Gateway, sunfish, lake elmo. so we should get some trails , if we keep our cool. let me know.
Hey Bill,

I stopped in at St. Croix because I heard you are working nights there on Wednesdays and Fridays but you had switched with Eric that night. If I find the time I might just drop in on ya tonight. I'm looking to get on my bike (haven't even touched dirt yet this year) so maybe you would be interested in going for a ride sometime.

Anyhow my thoughts on on the trail situation in Washington County is that it has endless room for growth. There really are no great trails systems in the area. Now that I am back living in the area I am going to have to join morc and try and attend some of these meetings myself.

I know growing up Sunfish has always been the untouchable holy grail of trails systems in the county. That area itself has deep roots with equestrians and I think they still carry the same beliefs about mountain bikers that they had ten years ago.

It is to bad to hear that the latest attempts did not receive better results to open up access in the area for us. Maybe there could be a push to build trails on new land like mentioned above.

[halls]

Hey Scott, good to hear from you. i'll be at the store this sunday and then next tues. and thrus. Did you know Andy P. is at RIE? Stop in and we can talk trails. Hey let's dig up that golf course and put in some single track! See you soon.

[berrywise]

Hah, who do you think told him about the job? Heh heh. He actually faxed his resume to them from Alaska before leaving the coast guard. It seems like quite a nice gig. Full benefits, not to many tune-ups a day and they are sending him out to Colorado for a week to attend bicycle school.

Anyway just stopped in for some coffee here at Dunn Brothers so I best get moving but I will do my best to swing in on ya Tuesday. I just moved into a new house in St. Paul today but still will be heading to Stillwater on occasion for beers etc.

scott

[halls]

Jim Luger from wash. county returned my call monday and we had a good conversation about trails in the county. Seems as though Pine Point maybe done for now. However, i asked him specifically about the Lake Elmo Master Plan. He indicated it should be finalized by this fall. He is looking at an area in the north end of the part which is unused and could be used for single track .If approved trails could be built in the spring of 2005. I'am going to scope this out this week.

Also , long range planning calls for trails in the Big Marine Lake area as it is developed? over the next 5yrs. or so. i'am sure someone might have a better feel for this area than i do. He sounded promising but indicated the horse people are well organized. Mr. Luger is not anti -mountain bike and is very impressed with the people of Morc. So i think continued e-mails or phone calls can let him know we are sincere. Single track in Lake Elmo would be a beginning.

[TML]

Jim Luger from wash. county returned my call monday and we had a good conversation about trails in the county. Seems as though Pine Point maybe done for now. However, i asked him specifically about the Lake Elmo Master Plan. He indicated it should be finalized by this fall. He is looking at an area in the north end of the part which is unused and could be used for single track .If approved trails could be built in the spring of 2005. I'am going to scope this out this week.

Also , long range planning calls for trails in the Big Marine Lake area as it is developed? over the next 5yrs. or so. i'am sure someone might have a better feel for this area than i do. He sounded promising but indicated the horse people are well organized. Mr. Luger is not anti -mountain bike and is very impressed with the people of Morc. So i think continued e-mails or phone calls can let him know we are sincere. Single track in Lake Elmo would be a beginning.
Thanks for the update Bill. Interesting stuff. Hopefully the Lake Elmo thing will work out. As far as the Big Marine area goes- I grew up just off the north side of the lake. The area to the south of the lake is Big Marine Park Reserve and is a tapestry of rolling meadows and oak forest that would lend itself beautifully to a weaving of singletrack. Someday. . .

--TML

[halls]

Big Marine sounds really nice. I think it will happen..........someday. :fool:

[KleinCrazy]

Ok,


I have some riding friends who have been interested in developing Mountain Bike trails in South Washington County, Specifically Cottage Grove Ravine.

http://www.co.washington.mn.us/info_for_residents/parks_division/parks_and_trails/cottage_grove_ravine_regional_park/

What do people thing of persuing this opportunity (currently Bikes and Horses are prohibited) since the Pine Point Park option is out?

Thanks
James